Awareness of awareness itself

[Peter]

a continuous struggle between the monkeymind wanting to wander in thoughts and me pulling myself back to my feet, my breath, the view, the people around me...

That sounds as if there was 'an observer'. That is you being aware. That's what it is all about. It is about feeling (at some point) that you are that observer, and that observer is indifferent to the thoughts and the emotions. Don't confuse ego with this observer though, which is what we normally tend to do, because ego certainly isn't indifferent.

Peter

[MiM]

Nothing new there Peter

Except... The observer being indifferent. That sounds odd to me. E.g. how can you be compassionate towards yourself, if the observer is indifferent?

[Peter]

The observer is indifferent to the thoughts and emotions. It has no attachment to those. It isn't indifferent towards you.

I really can't get my finger behind what you mean. You say you don't know that you have been aware. If you don't have a memory issue, that sounds like a contradiction to me.

Peter

[MiM]

Well not only compassionate towards yourself, but also accepting of the feelings and thougts. Non judgmental would maybe be a better word?

Actually I have a bit of a memory issue. I am not good at all at recalling emotions, so this might be quite different for other people. But I don't necessarily think it is.

So you are out on a walk in a beautiful sunset. While you are walking your inner observer is inactive, so you don't consciously register your inner processes. The next day you remember the walk, you remember the sunset, you remember it was beautiful and you remember the bird you saw flying, you remember you were worrying about an upcoming meeting at work and so on. But how well can you tell how much of that walk you were aware in the moment and how much you spent worrying or away in your monkeymind?

[JonW]

"But how well can you tell how much of that walk you were aware in the moment and how much you spent worrying or away in your monkey mind?"

Why would it matter? Nobody can be mindful every waking moment. Nor are we expected to keep score as to how much of the day we were mindful and how much of the day we were on auto-pilot. This is where self-judgment comes in. "Am I less mindful this week than last? Am I doing it right?" We need to be careful not to turn mindfulness into yet another form of striving.
Jon

[Peter]

MiM, when I'm out on a walk in a beautiful sunset, then the time that I'm aware, I know about, and I also know that afterwards, the time that I wasn't aware is a deduction from that.

Peter

[MiM]

So what did you then mean with "awareness of awareness", if you always know (=are aware of) when you are aware?

There might be a slight confusion here also between "being aware" and "being in the moment", which I believe are often used as almost synonyms. If we make a clear distinction between those, I can agree that when we are aware we are aware, but I would claim that we (or at least I) can be in the moment, e.g. deeply immersed in viewing a sunset, without being aware that we are.

Edited: Some typos made the post almost unintelligible. Sorry for that.

[Peter]

If you don't mind I'll answer your question, and we'll leave it at that.

Knowing is not the same as awareness. You might know that you've slept, but there wasn't any awareness. By awareness of awareness itself, I mean the following: if your awareness is observing your thoughts, then there's awareness of thoughts, and you know of this awareness, but there is no awareness of this awareness. If you turn that awareness towards the awareness itself, then there's awareness of awareness itself. See the seer if you will.

Peter

[MiM]

"But how well can you tell how much of that walk you were aware in the moment and how much you spent worrying or away in your monkey mind?"

Why would it matter? Nobody can be mindful every waking moment. Nor are we expected to keep score as to how much of the day we were mindful and how much of the day we were on auto-pilot. This is where self-judgment comes in. "Am I less mindful this week than last? Am I doing it right?" We need to be careful not to turn mindfulness into yet another form of striving.
Jon

In this case I was merely trying to describe (a small aspect of) my mental landscape to Peter, but that is still a good point Jon.

Peter: My seer is always self-aware, a part of it is always looking at itself. So if it is awake and I am aware I am always also aware of the awareness. I didn't really realize this can be different for others. Maybe this can be a part of the confusion in our discussion.

Anyway, to me this discussion was an interesting example on how difficult it can be to understand another persons mental processes. Thank you.