Starting to do meditation again but still have troubles with the randomness of thought

[Spikeycloud]

'Maybe you could also practice 3 times per day for 5 minutes?'

This is a great suggestion.
As Peter says, you can't realistically expect to see much change if you only commit five minutes per day. In that time, there simply isn't enough time for you to meet the kind of resistance that is at the heart of serious practice.
What kind of resistance are you meeting in that five minutes that makes it so challenging, Spikey? Is it an overactive mind? Physical discomfort? Boredom? Something else?
As a teacher, at the end of an eight-week course, I encourage participants to keep their practice fresh by mixing up their meditations. Do as much sitting practice as possible. But throw in body scans, walking meditations, mindful movement etc.
Also, Peter and myself are big believers in the idea of reading as part of practice. My own practice is sustained by reading a lot of books, not just on mindfulness/meditation, but also Zen, non-duality, spirituality, poetry etc. All of it keeps me grounded in my practice.
The key is to keep remembering to be mindful. And there's no substitute for daily practice. That's the only way.
Cheers,
Jon

The resitance that I meet is that I find it boring and often after a minute I'm hoping that the meditation is aleady over - and sometimes also physical discomfort. Also I find it hard to experience that my thoughts come in randomly because it feels I'm those thoughts - even though I know I'm not those thoughts they still feel like me when I'm in them and it is often hard for me to feel myself because they have an very strong influence on how I experience myself and the world. They are not clouds passing by for me like many like to use as a metaphor.

I find resistance in a lot of things. I'm busy with an IT training - and even though this training is very good for me - I keep getting very strong resistance working on it 1-2 hour a day. And this counts for many things in life that I want to do. This might also have to do with my depression

[Gareth]

The resitance that I meet is that I find it boring and often after a minute I'm hoping that the meditation is aleady over - and sometimes also physical discomfort.

These uncomfortable thoughts and feelings are your practice. Sit with them, get up close and personal with them. Do they have a shape, colour? Do you feel them in your body? Where? How?

If these feelings are so difficult that you are unable to manage this, then maybe you should try some other tactics. I'll let experienced teachers advise you on this.

Remember, meditation is not always easy.

[JonW]

'These uncomfortable thoughts and feelings are your practice.'

Never a truer word was spoken.
When I was on my mindfulness teaching course a few years back, I remember one of my fellow students experiencing a very difficult sitting meditation. 'There was a lot of physical discomfort,' she said, 'along with near-constant feelings of boredom and frustration.'
I expected our teacher to express some gentle words of sympathy. Instead, he grinned, rubbed his hands and said, 'Excellent. You've got plenty there to work with.'
His response was the correct one, of course. This practice is all about turning towards our present moment experience, as it arises. Pleasant, unpleasant, indifferent. It's about sitting with the boredom, the frustration, the physical discomfort, the whole nine yards.
Being with whatever arises. Not trying to get rid of anything. Making the shift from where we think we are to where we really are. Showing up in our own lives.
It takes a lot of courage, patience, commitment and self-compassion.
It's not easy. But it's a damn sight easier than living a non-mindful life, turning away from experience and hoping all the unpleasant stuff will go away if we pretend it's not happening or if we distract ourselves for long enough or if we push it away.
Or try beginning with gentle curiosity. Bring curiosity to the feelings of boredom and frustration that arise during meditation. All else (attention, self-compassion, acceptance etc.) flows from that simple curiosity about one's own experience.
All best,
Jon

[Spikeycloud]

The resitance that I meet is that I find it boring and often after a minute I'm hoping that the meditation is aleady over - and sometimes also physical discomfort.

These uncomfortable thoughts and feelings are your practice. Sit with them, get up close and personal with them. Do they have a shape, colour? Do you feel them in your body? Where? How?

If these feelings are so difficult that you are unable to manage this, then maybe you should try some other tactics. I'll let experienced teachers advise you on this.

Remember, meditation is not always easy.

I guess they are, the problem however is that it always feels that I'm choosing to think like that - while I obviously don't - but I experience I do.

I'm not sure if I feel them in my body going to pay attention to that next few sessions.

But in general it is extremely hard for me to let these things go

[Spikeycloud]

'These uncomfortable thoughts and feelings are your practice.'

Never a truer word was spoken.
When I was on my mindfulness teaching course a few years back, I remember one of my fellow students experiencing a very difficult sitting meditation. 'There was a lot of physical discomfort,' she said, 'along with near-constant feelings of boredom and frustration.'
I expected our teacher to express some gentle words of sympathy. Instead, he grinned, rubbed his hands and said, 'Excellent. You've got plenty there to work with.'
His response was the correct one, of course. This practice is all about turning towards our present moment experience, as it arises. Pleasant, unpleasant, indifferent. It's about sitting with the boredom, the frustration, the physical discomfort, the whole nine yards.
Being with whatever arises. Not trying to get rid of anything. Making the shift from where we think we are to where we really are. Showing up in our own lives.
It takes a lot of courage, patience, commitment and self-compassion.
It's not easy. But it's a damn sight easier than living a non-mindful life, turning away from experience and hoping all the unpleasant stuff will go away if we pretend it's not happening or if we distract ourselves for long enough or if we push it away.
Or try beginning with gentle curiosity. Bring curiosity to the feelings of boredom and frustration that arise during meditation. All else (attention, self-compassion, acceptance etc.) flows from that simple curiosity about one's own experience.
All best,
Jon

The problem is that I don't have trust that the randomness of thought - and being with that - is going to help me. Because my thoughts, my beliefsystem, patterns and emotions are creating a lot of suffering for me and it also creates extreme resistance to get some things I need. Also like I said before once I’m on those thoughts it becomes my reality they are not really clouds that pass by…

If they were just clouds that pass by and I could see ah this is me and this is just a thought - it would be a different story. But often this is not the case. And if I say "ah this is just a thought" isn't this a thought too? So I get very, very confused.

[JonW]

Hi Spikey,
If that's the most challenging area for you, I'd recommend using guided meditations specifically designed for relating to the thinking process in a different way - with the idea that you train yourself to observe thoughts as passing mental events, rather than get caught up in their content.
I can send you some of my own guided meditations, if you like. Gratis.
Let me know if that's something you would like to try.
All best,
Jon

[Peter]

I'd like to add to Jon's and Gareth's wonderful words:

I understand that you haven't had it easy, Spikey. I understand that you've suffered and want solutions. I can truly relate.

On another note, let's not forget that you haven't given meditation much of your time and practice yet, Spikey. For most people there are no shortcuts. You really cannot expect life changing effects when we're just debating the concepts. Change, for most, comes in very very small steps. For us as well, it's a life long commitment and dedication. We've put a lot of time and dedication in it already, and will have to keep doing that.

I also know that things aren't the same for us all. A very important thing is the chemical balance in our brains. For instance, our neurotransmitters determine largely our feelings and emotions. Feelings and emotions, are nature's way to steer an organism in a very very powerful way. It makes us even see and think things that aren't really there. This is all 'evolutionary design'. After all, it's better to mistake a stick for a snake, than to accidentally miss one deadly snake. Evolution has made it almost impossible to dismiss these feelings and emotions. In such cases it's also almost impossible to NOT identify with them. It's engulfing. But this chemical balance isn't the same for everyone, so the challenge isn't the same either.

If this feels relevant for you then I think that it's very important for you to realize this, and to meditate when you've a relative clear and calm mind. Make it as easy for yourself as possible while you grow this different perspective over time. And very importantly, be kind to yourself. Allow yourself the time and space to take on this challenge. Don't overdo it. It takes a long time to undo or weaken the neural pathways in our brain that have formed over time, and to build or strengthen new ones. Appreciate yourself! Especially when you've put in the time to practice.

The most important short term benefit mindfulness has to offer in this respect, is to not add extra suffering to the suffering there already is. We realize and feel our minds will do their things no matter what. They will bring up thoughts, trigger feelings and emotions. We don't want to take away these things, because this is the nature of our minds. We just want to acknowledge them and let them be. Ride the waves, if you will. By doing this we change perspective and we give our minds the space to let go and change priority.

[Spikeycloud]

Hi Spikey,
If that's the most challenging area for you, I'd recommend using guided meditations specifically designed for relating to the thinking process in a different way - with the idea that you train yourself to observe thoughts as passing mental events, rather than get caught up in their content.
I can send you some of my own guided meditations, if you like. Gratis.
Let me know if that's something you would like to try.
All best,
Jon

sure love to try that. How do you want to send it to me?

[Spikeycloud]

I'd like to add to Jon's and Gareth's wonderful words:

I understand that you haven't had it easy, Spikey. I understand that you've suffered and want solutions. I can truly relate.

On another note, let's not forget that you haven't given meditation much of your time and practice yet, Spikey. For most people there are no shortcuts. You really cannot expect life changing effects when we're just debating the concepts. Change, for most, comes in very very small steps. For us as well, it's a life long commitment and dedication. We've put a lot of time and dedication in it already, and will have to keep doing that.

I also know that things aren't the same for us all. A very important thing is the chemical balance in our brains. For instance, our neurotransmitters determine largely our feelings and emotions. Feelings and emotions, are nature's way to steer an organism in a very very powerful way. It makes us even see and think things that aren't really there. This is all 'evolutionary design'. After all, it's better to mistake a stick for a snake, than to accidentally miss one deadly snake. Evolution has made it almost impossible to dismiss these feelings and emotions. In such cases it's also almost impossible to NOT identify with them. It's engulfing. But this chemical balance isn't the same for everyone, so the challenge isn't the same either.

If this feels relevant for you then I think that it's very important for you to realize this, and to meditate when you've a relative clear and calm mind. Make it as easy for yourself as possible while you grow this different perspective over time. And very importantly, be kind to yourself. Allow yourself the time and space to take on this challenge. Don't overdo it. It takes a long time to undo or weaken the neural pathways in our brain that have formed over time, and to build or strengthen new ones. Appreciate yourself! Especially when you've put in the time to practice.

The most important short term benefit mindfulness has to offer in this respect, is to not add extra suffering to the suffering there already is. We realize and feel our minds will do their things no matter what. They will bring up thoughts, trigger feelings and emotions. We don't want to take away these things, because this is the nature of our minds. We just want to acknowledge them and let them be. Ride the waves, if you will. By doing this we change perspective and we give our minds the space to let go and change priority.

Thanks for your long post. I really like that you bring up how important chemicals are in our brain – and how they can change your perception of things. This became very clear to me when I used amphetamines in the past. On the high I felt like I was in a completely different life and was a completely different person than in the low. Also seeing I’m also hyper sensitive those contrasts were enormous with me. But because I liked to high so much I wanted to have control over my lows so that I can still enjoy the highs.... Trying to think of out if and trying to relative the low. Also that other people didn't seem to get the lows I did frustrated me to the bone back then. And might slightly do even now. Is there btw any reason you brought the brain chemical thing up?

And yes I will try to have more patience with myself, which is a thing I’m aware of very well, but often times I forget...or the impatience is triggered automatically without me realizing it.

[Peter]

That's great Spikey.

To be honest, I don't think you should start with mindfulness of thoughts at this particular time. You're already very frustrated, and chances are that it would only make things worse because you'd probably want results even more.

I think it would be better for you to keep things nice and simple for now. I think it's important that you get a good feeling about it. Until you've established a maintainable practice for a while. Find an enjoyable practice for now, like sitting in nature, in the sun, eyes closed and really listening to the sounds. This is difficult enough, and will also bring a different perspective. Over time, this too will put some space between your observing self and your mind and body. Which is the most important thing right now.

I realize that Jon's latest advice and my advice are contradictory. But one page back we'd agreed on this approach, so I suspect it might have slipped Jon's mind (as it did mine for a minute) or he has changed his mind. I'm sure he will shed some light on this.