How to respond to "interesting" thoughts?

[rexall]

Fri 29 Aug 2014, 8:00 pm

Hi All,

Nice to meet you all. I have "dabbled" with mindfulness for awhile, but more recently have been taking a course and working on a more formal practice. I have a question about insights and "interesting" or "important" thoughts, and I would be grateful for some discussion about it.

OK, so in mindful practice, we attend to our breathing, note when our mind wanders, maybe observe what sort of thought or fantasy it is, and then gently escort our attention back to the breath (or whatever the focus of the meditation is). However, in a course I was taking, we were asked to make notes aobut our experiences and observations during meditation to share later. Sometimes a thought will emerge that I find really interesting, maybe even a small insight, or maybe some idea or task that I feel will be important to remember. The problem is, if I return to my breathing, it is is almost certain I won't remember it later. Putting aside thoughts that I just think are "whey kewl," what about the observations that are a part of my course that I want to share with others?

Or am I kidding myself? Is none of the stuff that comes up particularly important, and the task is to return to the breath no matter what?

Does anyone else share this conflict and found a way through it?

Thanks!

Aloha,

Rex
Khon Kaen, Thailand

http://www.MindBodyThailand.net
http://REBTinfo.info

[JonW]

Hi Rex.
Welcome to the forum.
My take on it is that mindfulness gives us a choice as to whether to act on a thought or simply observe it arise and dissolve. In everyday life some thoughts are useful and worth acting on. During meditation we're taught to simply observe the thought arising and then return to the breath. If a thought arises that we feel might be useful to return to later on, perhaps make that observation and then return to the breath. In other words, file the thought away for future reference, rather than get tangled up in it.
All best,
Jon, Hove

[FeeHutch]

I don't have anything to add to Jon's wise words but wanted to say hello and welcome

[Gareth]

I find that when a really "worthwile" thought comes up during meditation, I sometimes find it difficult to let go of. It then keeps cropping up repeatedly throughout the meditation.

My phone is usually in front of me doing the timing or playing me music, so often, I'll just pick the phone up and make a note of the thought and come back to it at the end of my meditation. It tends to stop the thought repeatedly coming back at me. I have no idea if this is the "right" thing to do, and what could be classed as a worthwhile thought is a highly subjective matter of course.

[Matt Y]

Hi Rex,

I'd like to suggest that your issue with thoughts is only a problem if you make the instruction to return to the breath a "rule" rather than a suggestion. In mindfulness and meditation, the instructions offered are often taken — or assumed to be — rules, or edicts that must be enforced, in all circumstances. In my view, they are better regarded simply as ideas that you might like to try out.

Instead of taking the instructions as rules, you can just be curious about what happens when you attend to the breath, and what happens when you attend to your 'whey kewl' thoughts. Maybe you'll get caught up in them. Maybe they'll lead to other interesting thoughts, or insights. Maybe they'll quickly fade away. Maybe they'll lead you into a state of deep focus and calm. Maybe they won't interfere with your mindfulness at all. Maybe you can feel relaxed, calm and aware as you think (interesting thoughts).

If you, or anyone else, is interested in exploring these ideas further, I have written a post on the subject: 12 Good Reasons to Let Yourself Think in Meditation http://melbournemeditationcentre.com.au/articles/12-good-reasons-to-let-yourself-think-in-meditation/

I'd be interested to know your thoughts, on this response, and the article!
Matt.

[JonW]

That's a fascinating, thought-provoking article, Matt. Enjoyed it very much.
Thanks, Jon

[barbs55]

Really interesting article, thanks for directing us to it. I have posted a link on our Facebook page too as I'm sure others will find it helpful. I particularly liked the idea of approaching thinking not as 'the enemy' but as something beneficial.

[Gareth]

A fascinating article Matt, thank you so much for sharing it with us. It contains so many gems that could be used as Tweets for @mindfuleveryday. Do you have a Twitter handle so that I can use them and give you some credit?

In the article, I recognise a lot of my own journey. When I first started meditating and looking at my thoughts for the first time, I used to think that thoughts were the enemy, and that I was meditating to somehow quieten them down. I laugh at my former self now and realise how wrong-headed that thinking was. These days, I now realise that the thinking is never going to slow down. I am much more compassionate with my mind. As you put it, it's the brains job to think. Some days, I sit to meditate and it's like watching the contents of a tumble-dryer, and that's ok.

I'll give your article some shouts from our twitter feed, do give me your username to use. Please stick around and help us build this community. If you want to start forum topics as points for discussion, than I will share those too. Feel free to include links to your site and your work.

[rexall]

Hi Rex,

I'd like to suggest that your issue with thoughts is only a problem if you make the instruction to return to the breath a "rule" rather than a suggestion. In mindfulness and meditation, the instructions offered are often taken — or assumed to be — rules, or edicts that must be enforced, in all circumstances. In my view, they are better regarded simply as ideas that you might like to try out

<snip>

Matt.

Sat 13 Sep 2014, 6:17 pm

Hi Matt and others who have kindly responded. Somehow, I thought the website was going to e-mail me a notification of replies, which it didn't, so I am only now checking in. Anyway, thanks, all.

A few questions about your lovely blog post, Matt.

1. Would it be OK if I re-post with credit on MindBodyThailand.com?

2. Certainly, your over-arching proposal to be more accepting of thoughts is appealing and well taken. However, you seem to be mixing and interchangeably using concepts that I see as distinct. Luckily, even as a "noob" to mindfulness meditation, I have not gotten too caught up in the futility of trying to "control" or "stop" thoughts, for all of the reasons you mention. However, I do see mindfulness meditation as practicing different forms of attention or attending to different phenomenon; breathing, thinking, emotions, sound, taste/eating, washing the dishes, etc. Or in some cases, attending to "everything" simultaneously in an open focus, diffuse way. Were you just being loose with language or do you see practicing attention and "controlling thoughts" as the same process?

3. Although I am very new, I have read several books on mindfulness and recently completed an eight-week, online mindfulness course. From what I have read, there seems to be more similarities than differences in the way this material is usually organized and presented. It is not all that complicated. Chapter and verse is "gently returning to the breath" or to whatever the focus of the activity is.

What you are proposing makes sense and is intuitively very appealing. However, it seems to be almost radically different than "Mindfulness 101," almost as if you are proposing a new style or a new school of meditation. Nothing wrong with that. However would you consider that a fair assessment, or have I misunderstood your message and your intention?

4. Finally, while I get your drift, your specific instructions—if there indeed are any—are more elusive. Mindful breathing practice, for example, is crystal clear and easy to follow: Attend to my breathing for 20 minutes. When I notice that my mind has wandered, note what I was thinking/imaging, gently, non-judgmentally return to the breath. It is not that I feel especially accomplished at it, only that when I sit down to meditate, I know what I am supposed to do.

In your conclusions, you say ". . . don’t take that instruction to bring your attention back to the breath quite so seriously. . ."

Fair enough. Now what?

Thanks again.

Aloha,

Rex
Khon Kaen, Thailand
MindBodyThailand.com
REBTinfo.com

[Matt Y]

Hi Rex,

They're excellent questions you've posed. I'm glad you asked them!

1. Yes, feel free to re-post the article.

2. Are you asking if there is a distinction between paying attention and controlling thoughts? Perhaps I will leave my answer to this to your new post asking: "Is mindfulness meditation focus or ain't it?"

3. Yes, in some ways I think what I propose is 'radically different' from the standard approaches. I think your assessment is fair. On the other hand, it might only be considered radical if you are comparing it with a technique where the main instruction or intention is to develop focus or concentration. Where the main intention is to be mindful (not just of the breath, but of any/everything), then it may seem less radical. There are other schools and practices which recommend this more open and less structured approach. The Zen practice of 'just sitting' for example.

4. You are right. The injunction to remain focused on your breath is very simple. This is perhaps why it is so appealing. It's easy to understand and follow.

I think that when this type of instruction was developed what the teacher(s) had in mind was this very simplicity. They came up with a very simple task, so that people could feel like they were doing it right. But do we? No, never! Immediately you start this technique it becomes something you do well or badly. And our whole practice is trying to get us out of this dynamic.

In other words, you judge yourself according to how 'well' you think you are meditating. This propensity runs deep, and keeps us bound to ideas such as "I'm not good enough", and "I still can't do this properly."

If you wish to continue such a practice it's worth recognizing that you won't ever 'master' it, because it's the nature of the mind to continually assess our changing environment.

There is value to be had in becoming well focused, but in my experience, there are much more gentle and skillful ways of achieving states of calm and quiet. We don't need an instruction to come back to the breath. We can just allow our attention to attend to the breath in due course — when it's naturally drawn there. If our attention is drawn to other places, we can explore those places (with interest, with curiosity). In this way we get to know our minds (as they are), instead of trying to get them (however gently) to obey us. Instead of reinforcing the habits of trying to control, avoid, distract and dissociate (from what pains us), we are learning how to be more curious, more kind, more gentle, more tolerant, more accepting and more permissive.

When you start practicing with looser instructions (e.g. just sit), it is likely that some confusion will arise. You can no longer easily answer the questions "Am I doing this right?" or "How well am I doing?" Hopefully though, you can see that this is a good thing! You are no longer caught in this bind in which you have to achieve something, or get somewhere. You can permit yourself to feel confused, and be interested in getting to know the thoughts and feelings that accompany such a state. You'll be learning about yourself, about how confusion arises, about what factors perpetuate or exacerbate that state, and about what factors allow it to diminish or fade. You develop some insight. And from this may arise a sense of achievement, along with contentment.

There's much more to this that I can address here. For a much more eloquent and comprehensive treatment of this question you might refer to the book Unlearning Meditation: What to Do When the Instructions Get in the Way, by Jason Siff.

And if anything doesn't make sense above, or you'd like further clarification, please ask away. I appreciate your thoughtful questions.

Matt.