MBSR vs. MBCT

[James123]

What (if any) are the fundamental differences between the above?

I know one is aimed at stress reduction and the other is aimed at people who have suffered depression several times, but I was just wondering if there are major differences?

I ask because I've just found out (woo hoo!) there is a group course accessible to me which I'd much prefer even though I suffer with social anxiety, but it's MBCT based and for me I think MBSR would be more beneficial.

[JonW]

Hello James.
I asked this of my teacher when I was attending my 8-week course in Brighton. If memory serves, he told me that there is very little difference between the two courses, that there is only minor tweaking between the two.
If you'd like, I can e-mail my teacher to verify this. Just let me know.
All best,
Jon, Hove

[JonW]

ps.
James has raised an important question here and I feel it's important that it's answered by someone qualified to do so. Therefore, I have contacted my teacher, Nick Diggins, who has kindly got straight back to me, saying that he will email me a carefully considered reply in the next few days.
As soon as I receive that email I will post on this thread.
Cheers, Jon

[James123]

That's great. Thanks for that, Jon. Appreciate it.

The reason I originally asked is because I've enrolled on a "high intensity" (hate that phrase) CBT course via the NHS. I advised the chap that I met on an introductory meeting that they should seriously look at mindfulness. He advised that they do have an 8 week course (until the funding stops) which he's fairly sure is based around FPIAFW, but wasn't 100% sure.

They have I think 10 PWP's (Psychological Wellbeing Practioner) who have been trained to teach high intensity CBT. 2 of those 10 are the one's who teach the 8 week mindfulness course. Now me being me I've assumed that they have been kinda "taught" mindfulness but don't practice it or if they do have only been doing it 5 mins because it all seems like a new set up.

Now I know it's naive to assume how good or bad the teachers are but if I'm going to go through the pain barrier of attending this weekly course because of my social anxiety I'd much rather do it with an experienced teacher who knows his/her stuff.

Oh to live in Brighton. It seems as if it's that's the place to be mindfulness wise.

If it wasn't for the shocking parking, lack of sandy beaches and house prices I'd move there in a flash!

[JonW]

The price of a pint down here is no chuckling matter either. I paid £4.80 for a pint of Stella yesterday. Shocking.
Also, too many mime artists around these parts for my liking. Blokes pretending to be trapped behind glass and the like.
Apart from that, it's a perfect town.

[Gareth]

they have been kinda "taught" mindfulness but don't practice it or if they do have only been doing it 5 mins because it all seems like a new set up.

It would sadden me if the NHS ended up doing 'mindfulness by rote.' This is a practice that has to be lived to be truly understood.

[FeeHutch]

I fear that might well become the case Gareth. The NHS did seem to jump on CBT and tried to speed train therapists to do that a few years ago. As a therapist I have undertaken years of training, self development and therapy as well as supervised practice before I qualified. If they try and teach mindfulness and role it out in the way some places approached CBT, it will mean people who have read the book and perhaps done a weekend or two training could be used to provide this service.

It is worth remembering that whether you are seeing a counsellor, therapist or mindfulness teacher privately or via the NHS they should be open with you about their qualifications and happy to ensure you are satisfied they are the right person for you to feel able to trust and open up too.

[piedwagtail91]

I think it is the case. They seem to think training pwps up and not bothering to much about whether or not their personal practice is ok.
I don't think it can be called mbct because training people like this doesn't fit in with the guidelines that all'proper' teachers adhere to.
I've been in practices led by'practitioners' who don't have much of a personal practice and they're dire.
They have no idea.
mindfulness teaching takes a lot of practice and supervision to get to the required standard. Unfortunately as it becomes more well known a lot more quacks are going to jump on the bandwagon.

[JonW]

My teacher, Nick Diggins, has very kindly taken time out to answer James's question in full. A big thanks to Nick who can be contacted via his website:
http://mindfulnessforwellbeing.co.uk
Here's Nick's carefully considered response:

What is the difference between MBCT and MBSR?
Mindfulness-based Stress reduction and Mindfulness-based Cognitive Therapy are two very similar 8-week mindfulness courses and many people ask what the difference. Broadly speaking they are roughly 80% to 90% the same (depending on who teaches them and how they teach) and for most people either course will provide the same benefit.

What MBCT and MBSR have in Common
The mindfulness component of the course, which constitutes at least 80% of the course, is identical. Both have the same meditation practices and both are aimed at learning to use mindfulness so as to ‘wake up’ to the beauty in life that is so easily missed. Both courses also look in detail at the way in which difficult mental states (like stress or anxiety) arise in relation to life challenges, and teach ways of using mindfulness to learn how to ‘be with’ and manage difficult experiences, both big and small so that we don’t make them worse than they need to be. In particular there is an emphasis on learning to ‘nip in the bud’ any tendency to ‘make a drama out of a crisis’.
Mindfulness itself is the ‘active ingredient’ of both courses. However, this is not something we need to ‘add’ to ourselves. Mindfulness is a natural ability, that we all have, to be positively absorbed in what is happening right here right now. Some people experience this while doing sport, or a favourite hobby such as gardening or something creative. Some people experience it when positively engaged in a work task, or out in nature, or while talking with a good friend. However, this sense of natural absorption is so easily hidden or eclipsed by ‘over-thinking’ – being caught up in plans, worries, ‘the past’ – or the pressure of getting through our ‘to do’ list. We can, and often do, also ‘over-think’ about things that are happening right now.
While thinking and planning are essential, they can easily ‘take over’ so that we spend hardly any time in the ‘present moment’ and instead just experience a running commentary in our heads that never stops. For some people this can take the form of extremely negative thinking, while for others it is just annoying and frustrating- and it gets in the way of enjoying life.
Both MBCT and MBSR address this common habit we can all fall into of ‘over thinking’ and how to use mindfulness to ‘tap into’ our natural inner stability and resourcefulness.

What is different about MBCT and MBSR?
MBCT and MBSR have ‘pure’ forms – the original clinical versions, and more ‘generic’ forms where the original syllabus has been adapted to make it relevant for anyone.
MBSR and MBCT were both originally designed to help with specific conditions- MBSR was designed to help with the stress of illness, and MBCT was designed to help avoid relapse into depression. In fact MBCT was a combination of most of the MBSR syllabus with some specific cognitive therapy exercises which look at specific patterns of negative thinking which depressed people are vulnerable to. In these original programs there is an emphasis in MBSR on understanding the mechanisms underlying stress and there is an emphasis in MBCT on clarifying the mechanisms underlying depression.
However, both courses have now been ‘generalised’ so as to make them relevant for anyone. So as well as being used in hospitals and clinics for their originally intended client groups, both MBCT and MBSR are now being used, in a more ‘generic’ form to help anyone manage day to day stress and life challenges. Teachers, like myself, who offer these more ‘generic’ versions of the original programs, usually mix in a bit more of each program into the other. When I teach MBCT I also include an exploration of how stress functions and how mindfulness can intervene. When I teach MBSR, like many other teachers, I include much from the MBCT program (especially about negative thinking) because MBCT did bring some very good ‘innovations’ to the original MBSR format.
Moreover, the exercises and components of the course that are specific to each program (MBCT and MBSR) actually make up a very small proportion of the class time, and in some respects could be said to point to the same general principles, i.e., of how to extricate ourselves from the ‘over thinking’ and ‘negative interpretation’ that reduce our enjoyment of life.

Should I do MBCT or MBSR?
For most people I generally advise doing whichever course is most easily available and suits your schedule. For most people either course will provide a thorough grounding on how to use mindfulness to wake up more to life’s beauty and to come to understand the unique unhelpful mental we each have that lead us to miss that natural sense of ease and contentment. However, for people who have a history of recurrent depression, and for whom that is the main reason for doing the course, I would generally advise doing the MBCT course because the cognitive therapy exercises in that course are specifically designed to demonstrate how depression works.

[James123]

That's great. Could you please pass on my thanks to Nick to when you get a sec please Jon? It was very kind of him to take the time out to answer, fully, the question.

Also, could you ask him to move to the Isle of Wight so he can start teaching me as he sounds fantastic and just what I need.

Thank you please!