Slight concerns about still getting lost in thinking

[Hambostein]

Hi All,

Right - at the moment I'm attempting to be in a Mindful state all the time (quite a newbie - five weeks in to 1hr a week Medtation/Mindfulness course, and it's only the past fortnight I've tried to put the Mindul theory into practce full time).

At first I was walking around like a Mindful Robocop for periods trying to experience every footstep, arm movement and the such, seemed to be concentrating far too much on these things that when I got to my destination i.e. the kitchen I was struggling to remember what I'd gone there for !! ....... I still have my Robo-Mindful-cop moments (I find that quite fun) but strive to be more relaxed about things.

I do feel quite successful about everything right now, I seem to be able to chose what I think about and every chance I get I take a few deep breaths to concentrate about bringing myself back to the old cilched(sp) being in the Now.

BUT .... I do find myself thinking quite a bit still (not negative thoughts, I can just let those old 'friends' go and float away for the time being, which I think is good, very good) ..... I am thinking mainly about Mindfulness and if what I'm doing is "rightfully in a Mindful way", I find myself gettiing lost at times in these thoughts, then comes the big breaths to concentrate on bringing myself back to the present.
I find myself having discussion with myself about exactly what Mindfulness is (i.e. Daydreaming - can you do that in a Mindful way ?)

Don't get me wrong, this is not much of a concern, but I would appreciate other peoples feelings/thoughts on this.
Should I concentrate mainly on the present moment (which I try to), or is it OK to think about these matters but there again is it my mind trying to trick me in to getting back into my old way of thinking all the time ?? ... should I be wary of this ???

I don't know, just don't know ..... what I do know it's time for some deep breaths to concentrate on to bring me back to to (you've guessed it) the NOW !!

Cheers
Hambo

[JonW]

"'m attempting to be in a Mindful state all the time."

That's a big ask of yourself, Hambo. Even long-term practitioners (including Jon Kabat-Zinn) wouldn't claim to be in a mindful state 24/7.
The important thing is to notice when you're not being mindful rather than strive to be mindful all the time.
Difficult thoughts will continue to rise. You will experience difficult emotions. That's simply being human.
It sounds to me like mindfulness is proving to be hugely beneficial to you. But give yourself time to relax into it, keep learning from it, and try not to aim for impossible goals. Mindful Robocop is a wonderful idea. But, as you say, it's more important to be relaxed about things. Ultimately this is about self-compassion.
It takes time to find the right balance for yourself. Go easy, tiger!
All best, JonW

[Hambostein]

Thanks for the reply Jonw, I believe you're right this practice has been benificial to me, but it's early days yet and as such I haven't had any real issues to try and deal with (believe me, I do get them and don't usually fare too well when they hit me, but strangely enough I am looking forward to the next emotional thing hitting the fan, I'm curious to see how I get on).

As for going easy on myself and not trying to be Mindful all the time, don't get me wrong ... I'm trying but there's no way I'm succeeding, I realise that and don't think I'll ever succeed fully and there's no way I'm going to beat myself up over it ... BUT there's no harm in trying is there ? .... and besides that I'm enjoying it, so there !!

Back to my OP about thinking about Mindfulness a lot, the concern I have is that this seems to be the thought pattern I have had with negative thoughts in the past, i.e. analysing it to the minutest degree, is my mind just replacing one set of thoughts with another?
I don't know, but like I say it's quite pleasurable at the moment, so I'm not that bothered, just enjoying the old cliched 'moment'.

sorry about these ramblings on, this is just me doing a brain dump on your forum, more for my benifit than anyone else..
Cheers
Hambo

[JonW]

Hi Hambo,
Your posts are warmly welcomed, I assure you.
In my experience there's an initial period with mindfulness when the "wow" factor kicks in. There's nothing wrong with that in itself. But I feel it's important not to be goal-oriented.
Among other things, mindfulness is an antidote to analytical thinking. Rather than get swept away by our more compulsive thoughts, we're asked to simply acknowledge that they have risen. I have found that, by noticing thoughts as they arise, rather than fighting with them or pushing them away, they tend to lose their potency. But this takes time and, if anybody claimed to have completely mastered their thoughts and feelings, I wouldn't believe them.
There's no aim of 24/7 enlightenment here. More a gentle, gradual process in learning to live with ourselves in a more open, compassionate way. That doesn't involve conquering our own thoughts and feelings, just living them in a more equanimous fashion.
One of the first things we learn on the 8-week course is, "we are not our thoughts." That is open to misunderstanding, I feel. It doesn't mean that all our thoughts are useless. Some thoughts (e.g. "I have a meeting tomorrow so I'd best prepare for it") are of great practical use. Mindfulness is more concerned with the 95% (I speak for myself maybe) of our thoughts that are just an endless gurgle of worry, rumination and self-judgment, and only lead us to unnecessary suffering. Ultimately, they are only thoughts, however powerful they might seem.
My take on mindfulness is that it teaches us that suffering is not inevitable. That doesn't mean we won't feel pain, sadness, fear etc. Only that we can learn not to add layer upon layer of self-generated suffering over those emotions.
Cheers, Jon

[Brad]

I think that any thoughts you're having while trying to be mindful, even if they have to do with mindfulness and its practice, should be recognized as thoughts that should be disregarded (gently of course, as I'm sure you know, dismissing thoughts should never be forceful or contentious), and to bring your attention back to the present.

[BioSattva]

I am enjoying this thread - I think I tend to do the same as you Hambo.

Two things I can add are as follows:

1) I think it's worth carefully assessing one's practice at the beginning - reflecting on the way we are practicing and possibly looking around for different and possibly better pointers from teachers who see things more from our own perspective. One day, and on some days, we need to explain or even teach what we are doing with our practice, and so mindfully considering how we can do this isn't a bad thing, in my opinion. We need to make our practice 'our own' and part of that is getting to grips with the methodology in our own way. I see it like positioning the sledge at the top of the hill for it to arrive at a certain spot at the bottom. At some point, however, the real journey must begin and we must hop on the sled and go with the flow - focus on the ride, rather than how we positioned ourselves before we got on.

2) Mindfulness practice has a very large physical dimension to it in the sense that one should be following one's natural, healthy intentions with the aim of noticing any dis-ease in the body or mind so that one may allow it the opportunity to dissolve. If you had gone to the kitchen because you were starving, and then when you arrived you were so lost in thought that you weren't even aware that you needed to feed yourself, then that sounds a bit dangerous. If you were heading to the kitchen to get a sugar hit, and by the time you arrived there you felt you didn't need it, but had forgotten your original intention by that point, then that could be normal and 'healthy' because you mindfulness distracted you from unhealthy habitual behaviour.

In any case, I think this picture probably sums things up better:



Also, in this video on youtube: Mindfulness in Schools: Richard Burnett at TEDxWhitechapel, around 9:38 a diagram is shown which illustrates how we need to balance out the amount of time we are sensing to the amount of time we are thinking so that we can manage our habits better.

Your enthusiasm is a great motivator, however as Jon Kabat-Zinn has said elsewhere, we need to be careful that our enthusiasm doesn't uproot us - that our new-found energy and joy doesn't become manic and create tension in us that numbs us to what subtle processes are at work. I like to think that the joy which comes from mindfulness practice is like a relaxed pleasant walk in a park, rather than something more like a disco experience as we jump around shouting "Life is great!" .

It's amazing what mindfulness can do, but that will only be experienced in the short-term if one's emotions are amplified too much. As some Zen teachers have taught: "Nothing special, just nature". A leaf or a stone are not worth getting excited about, and neither is our 'true nature'. As normal as a cloudy day in old Blighty (a cloudy day which we can enjoy peacefully ).

I am looking forward to the next emotional thing hitting the fan, I'm curious to see how I get on

This reminds me of Charlotte Joko Beck in 'Everyday Zen':

One way to evaluate our practice is to see whether life is more and more OK with us. And of course it’s fine when we can’t say that, but still it is our practice. When something’s OK with us we accept everything we are with it; we accept our protest, our struggle, our confusion, the fact that we’re not getting anywhere according to our view of things. And we are willing for all those things to continue: the struggle, the pain, the confusion. In a way that is the training of sesshin [Japanese Zen mindfulness retreats]. As we sit through it an understanding slowly increases: “Yes, I’m going through this and I don’t like it—wish I could run out—and somehow, it’s OK.” That increases.

[Hambostein]

Well thanks to everybody for all your responses, I think you lot have succeded in talking me down to earth a bit, all these thoughts going through my head are most probably due to the initial 'wow' factor of the present feelings I currently have, I have realised this about myself over the years, I do have periods of intensity on subjects.
From now on I shall try and let them float away with the rest of the thoughts that come to me, I think I kind of realised that anyway, just need confirmation.

But I am feeling good in myself and looking forward to the future, even excited about it, like I say I feel like a kid with a new toy (I'm 55 years old for Christs Sake !! ... should really know better at my age).

Even more meditation is what I'm prescibing myself, and also reading that FPIAFW and eating raisins and things

let's see if that makes me any saner

Hambo

[JonW]

"I am feeling good in myself and looking forward to the future, even excited about it, like I say I feel like a kid with a new toy (I'm 55 years old for Christs Sake !! ... should really know better at my age)."

That's great to hear.
BioSattva mentioned Charlotte Joko Beck's Everyday Zen.
I too would highly recommend that book. It's immeasurably wise.

[Steve]

Hambostein

One observation I'd add in response to your query is for you to be aware if you are choosing to think about mindfulness or if the mind is doing this when you want to do something else.

If you are doing a formal practice and thoughts come up (as they always do), you should let these go (whatever they are) and gently return to the focus of your meditation.

At some other time when you want your mind/thinking to explore/ruminate on mindfulness from an intellectual or some other standpoint then I see nothing wrong in choosing to do this and having a good think about it. Mindfulness is not about stopping thinking but taking control of you brain/mind so you can use it as a tool (which is what is supposed to be) rather than letting the mind take control of you and what you are doing or thinking.

Many of us have a tendency to think too much and too often about things (and so spend much of our life in the past or future) rather than experiencing the now. There's nothing wrong with thinking its just a matter of who is in control of it.

Steve

[Hambostein]

Thanks for that response Steve, and everybody else, I've found all these replies quietly re-assurring, like I say it's nothing I was really worried about and if these thoughts come to me during Meditations it seems I can let them float off away into the ether, together with the rest of those pesky thought interuptions ....

Right now it appears that I'm finding thinking about Minfulness, and discussing the subject with myself, quite enjoyable and dare I say it, beneficial, and as long as I feel I'm in control of these thoughts can't see no problem,

No doubt Mindfulness thoughts will lose their appeal to me over time, then I can start concentrating on more important matters like the state of my p.poor Wolverhampton Wanderers Football club again..........

Thanks All
Hambo