Hi all, this is my first post. I'm glad to be a part of the community.
When I began meditating I subscribed to the idea that I could learn to watch my thoughts. I liked analogies about being the one sitting on the mountain as the clouds (i.e. thoughts) pass by, or on the riverbank watching the flow of mental content.
That was about five years ago. I've had a daily meditation practice since and attended a number of retreats. What I have found is that the advice to observe thoughts is a bit misleading. In my experience, the moment that thoughts are brought into awareness, they disappear. The moment I am truly mindful there are no thoughts to be mindful of. Either I am lost in thought, or I am mindful. Thoughts can not seem to be an object attention in the way the breath can be.
I am curious to know if this resonates with anyone else, or do you find you are able to create space between you and the thoughts and are able to watch them?
Can you really observe thought?
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JonW
- Team Member
- Posts: 2897
- Practice Mindfulness Since: 08 Dec 2012
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Hi Tasman,
Welcome to the forum.
That pretty much chimes with my own experience, only I would say that thoughts, when held in awareness, tend not to be problematic. I wouldn't say they disappear completely. When I'm aware of them, they seem to lose their hold on me. In a sense, they become something like the sounds of a radio left on in another room - faint and unobtrusive, nothing to be concerned about.
All best to you,
Jon
Welcome to the forum.
That pretty much chimes with my own experience, only I would say that thoughts, when held in awareness, tend not to be problematic. I wouldn't say they disappear completely. When I'm aware of them, they seem to lose their hold on me. In a sense, they become something like the sounds of a radio left on in another room - faint and unobtrusive, nothing to be concerned about.
All best to you,
Jon
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Welcome Tasman,
I agree. I also don't like those analogies. In my experience it sets people up for frustration. It either puts a visualization into people's heads. Or they feel like they are failing.
It is possible though. You are right, if you really focus on your thoughts it can't be done, because there won't be any. That is because the Default Network of the brain isn't activated then. But I've noticed that when the mind is calm, and one is pretty naturally mindful, it is possible to have a lighter focus on thoughts. It is more like a split attention e.g. 80% busy with thought, and 20% busy with awareness. If the balance shifts too much either way, it can't be sustained. This state cannot be obtained with force, but only by giving things space with a certain lightness. The harder one tries, the more impossible it becomes. I never try to achieve this. I couldn't. If the conditions are just right, it just happens. The main skill that one learns is not to tighten one's grip and focus more when this happens, because then it is gone.
My advice to people who start with mindfulness is to try to become aware of one's thoughts, not while they are happening, but when one snaps out of them. This also isn't as easy as one might think. But with practice it becomes easier.
Also, what Jon said is a very important part. If one is aware of one's thoughts, they become less powerful.
I agree. I also don't like those analogies. In my experience it sets people up for frustration. It either puts a visualization into people's heads. Or they feel like they are failing.
It is possible though. You are right, if you really focus on your thoughts it can't be done, because there won't be any. That is because the Default Network of the brain isn't activated then. But I've noticed that when the mind is calm, and one is pretty naturally mindful, it is possible to have a lighter focus on thoughts. It is more like a split attention e.g. 80% busy with thought, and 20% busy with awareness. If the balance shifts too much either way, it can't be sustained. This state cannot be obtained with force, but only by giving things space with a certain lightness. The harder one tries, the more impossible it becomes. I never try to achieve this. I couldn't. If the conditions are just right, it just happens. The main skill that one learns is not to tighten one's grip and focus more when this happens, because then it is gone.
My advice to people who start with mindfulness is to try to become aware of one's thoughts, not while they are happening, but when one snaps out of them. This also isn't as easy as one might think. But with practice it becomes easier.
Also, what Jon said is a very important part. If one is aware of one's thoughts, they become less powerful.
Thanks for the replies. I agree with you both and have changed my perspective a little on what it means to be mindful of thought.
After reading your replies, I reflected on my experience of thoughts and noticed that the character of my thoughts has changed dramatically over the years. There are certainly still times when I am completely lost (although for much shorter of a time), i.e. when I am not mindful. And then there are times when I use my attention to see what all the fuss in my mind is really about (not much, is the answer). But then there is also that more background awareness, that is quite different to attention, which increasingly becomes a part of everyday life, and when this awareness is quietly working away thoughts might still be there but they hold much less weight and are simply not a big deal.
So as you say Jon, with the radio analogy, and you Peter, with the 'lighter focus on thoughts', mindfulness can be present alongside thoughts. I guess what I was referring to was deliberately directed attention, whereby it does seem that if attention is directed to thoughts then they are nowhere to be found. However, that definition of mindfulness is too narrow, and if I expand it out to include more general awareness, then mindfulness certainly plays a role in making whatever thoughts are present a little lighter, fluffier, and nothing to be bothered about.
I still do not think the analogies I mentioned in the first message really capture this nuance, but thanks to your replies I have clarified for myself a distinction between awareness and attention and what their relationship to thought is.
After reading your replies, I reflected on my experience of thoughts and noticed that the character of my thoughts has changed dramatically over the years. There are certainly still times when I am completely lost (although for much shorter of a time), i.e. when I am not mindful. And then there are times when I use my attention to see what all the fuss in my mind is really about (not much, is the answer). But then there is also that more background awareness, that is quite different to attention, which increasingly becomes a part of everyday life, and when this awareness is quietly working away thoughts might still be there but they hold much less weight and are simply not a big deal.
So as you say Jon, with the radio analogy, and you Peter, with the 'lighter focus on thoughts', mindfulness can be present alongside thoughts. I guess what I was referring to was deliberately directed attention, whereby it does seem that if attention is directed to thoughts then they are nowhere to be found. However, that definition of mindfulness is too narrow, and if I expand it out to include more general awareness, then mindfulness certainly plays a role in making whatever thoughts are present a little lighter, fluffier, and nothing to be bothered about.
I still do not think the analogies I mentioned in the first message really capture this nuance, but thanks to your replies I have clarified for myself a distinction between awareness and attention and what their relationship to thought is.
Great reply, Tasman! Thanks!
Last thing I'll add - I just came this as I'm revisiting the book 'Mindfulness in Plain English'. It seems very much in line with what you've expressed, Peter.
"Mindfulness is very much like what you see with your peripheral vision as opposed to the hard focus of normal or central vision. Yet this moment of soft, unfocused awareness contains a very deep sort of knowing that is lost as soon as you focus your mind and objectify the object into a thing."
Talk soon
"Mindfulness is very much like what you see with your peripheral vision as opposed to the hard focus of normal or central vision. Yet this moment of soft, unfocused awareness contains a very deep sort of knowing that is lost as soon as you focus your mind and objectify the object into a thing."
Talk soon
I agree, it seems to describe the same thing. Great find, Tasman!
Hi Tasman, welcome to the forum.
My experience is pretty much the same as yours. As soon as thought gets the full spotlight of awareness, I find that it tends to dissipate.
Like the others said, you can kind of get there sometimes. It is also possible to deliberately think when you put your mind to it.
I find these areas of discussion quite hard, because I barely know the person I was before I started meditating. The way that I process life is different now.
My experience is pretty much the same as yours. As soon as thought gets the full spotlight of awareness, I find that it tends to dissipate.
Like the others said, you can kind of get there sometimes. It is also possible to deliberately think when you put your mind to it.
I find these areas of discussion quite hard, because I barely know the person I was before I started meditating. The way that I process life is different now.
Hi Tasman!
Welcome!
I know that feeling.
Welcome!
I know that feeling.
Let your creativity run free.
You can be who you want to be.
You can do what you want to do.
The only 1 you have to please is you.
You can be who you want to be.
You can do what you want to do.
The only 1 you have to please is you.
Hi Guys, This is my first interaction here.
Can we observe the thought? Yes.
But it is difficult when the thought becomes a 'string of thoughts'. And then it is even more difficult when the thought is mixed up with emotion.
Every single thought has a life cycle. Birth - Life - Death. (With mindfulness we can observe this cycle).
The moment we 'clearly' identify a single thought, it loses its life, thus 'Death'. So, it is gone, blank. That is the nature of it.
Perhaps this blog may help you: https://wordpress.com/view/kindnesstemp.home.blog
Can we observe the thought? Yes.
But it is difficult when the thought becomes a 'string of thoughts'. And then it is even more difficult when the thought is mixed up with emotion.
Every single thought has a life cycle. Birth - Life - Death. (With mindfulness we can observe this cycle).
The moment we 'clearly' identify a single thought, it loses its life, thus 'Death'. So, it is gone, blank. That is the nature of it.
Perhaps this blog may help you: https://wordpress.com/view/kindnesstemp.home.blog
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