The Mind Illuminated by Culadasa ( John Yates PHD )

[Matt Y]

For instance a danger in meditation is dullness, which I think I started feeling and found quite scary. My breathing rate dropped to next to nothing a few times and powerful visions and floating sensations. I had to pull myself away thinking I would stop breathing altogether. Culadasa classes this as gross dullness which can be very pleasant, floating, dreamlike but it is in essence a distraction, albeit a highly pleasant one.

Dullness a danger? Crossing a busy intersection while the light is red is dangerous. Dullness is not. Calling dullness a danger strikes me as rather extreme! I would argue that it's certainly something to note and explore; but nothing that need be overly concerning.

It's typical for your breathing rate to drop during meditation. When the breath becomes very subtle and slow that's actually a good sign that you are very relaxed; and if it's accompanied by [hypnagogic] images and unusual sensations that's just an indication that you are on the cusp of sleep (physically), but a bit more aware of this kind of state than normal.

There is no need to pull away from such states. In fact, just the opposite. I would suggest that it would be useful to learn how to navigate your way through these states. You would certainly not stop breathing altogether, as respiration is a function of the autonomous nervous system, over which you have relatively little control.

Culadasa's book is indeed very detailed. He does set out a path, with clear steps and signs of progress. Keep in mind though, that his definition of mindfulness is just one of many, as is JKZ's. I think many people would argue that Culadasa's approach is one in which jhana (concentration) is emphasised over mindfulness.

In other approaches, the very idea of steps and signs of progress is itself questionable; particularly as we are all unique — and many people find they don't fit into such neat little boxes.

For those interested in exploring mindfulness in its many flavours, you may also like to check out When Awareness Becomes Natural: A Guide to Cultivating Mindfulness in Everyday Life by Sayadaw U Tejaniya.

Another recently published book which I found worthwhile is Bill Morgan's The Meditator's Dilemma: An Innovative Approach to Overcoming Obstacles and Revitalizing Your Practice

[mybubble]

Hi Matt,

I really appreciate your view and thank you for giving it. The more differing views the better, it gives me more to think about and you have made me think.

In hindsight I should not have used the word Danger. Certainly never intended it to be literal. I think perhaps side effect or state of meditation should be more applicable. Apologies.

Regarding breathing, in all sessions my breathing becomes more shallow. As you mention we are all different, I have mild sleep apnea and have experienced similar in very deep relaxed states of meditation, conscious, but pulling myself out and grasping for air. I am probably a rare lone case.

I am surprised when you say Yates's view is one of greater concentration. You certainly have more experience than I do in these matters, I will have to broaden my research on this.

I would have said he is the opposite to high concentration, although I am only working on stage 4 so I don't know what lies ahead. He has strived to warn in most sections the importance of not concentrating so much that one loses focus on peripheral awareness. This makes sense to me.

I like Yates' definition of mindfulness. The optimal point between constant attention and peripheral awareness.

As I mentioned in another post it all depends on what a person wants out of meditation. You said and I agree, we are all different. I came to mindfulness for stress reduction. Its reduced, so now what do I do? I choose to change my practice to focus on clarity on mind and the thought process. The practice is not as relaxing as entering a deep state of consciousness, but it is enlightening.

Thank you for the book suggestions, I will definitely check them out. Meditation and mindfulness is such a broad area it helps to get suggestion of where to go next. I have tried JKZ and Thich, I will explore some other styles too to help me fine tune my own opinion.

[Matt Y]

Hi mybubble,

Thanks for your thoughtful and appreciative reply.

I may have taken 'danger' too literally; but I think we do need to be careful with the words we choose: they can have unintended interpretations and consequences.

Another word to clarify: shallow (with regard to breathing).

When you say shallow do you mean subtle, delicate, light, gentle, soft, barely noticeable?

Or do you mean shallow as in centered high in the body, in the chest (and as opposed to deep, down in the belly)?

Many people say their breath becomes shallow in meditation, when it may be more accurate to say subtle. I guess this is because when we're asked to take a deep breath, we usually assume this means a big, full breath, rather than a breath deep down in the body.

In my experience a relaxed, meditative breath is one which is both deep (abdominal) and subtle.

In any case, the sleep apnea is certainly an added complication, though I understand it's relatively common.

I am surprised when you say Yates's view is one of greater concentration. You certainly have more experience than I do in these matters, I will have to broaden my research on this.

I would have said he is the opposite to high concentration, although I am only working on stage 4 so I don't know what lies ahead. He has strived to warn in most sections the importance of not concentrating so much that one loses focus on peripheral awareness. This makes sense to me.

I guess it all depends on what you are used to. My recent post "What The Hell Is Mindfulness Anyway?" includes a link to a video presentation by Dr John Dunne, which may clarify where Culadasa's approach lies on the mindfulness spectrum.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4670

As I mentioned in another post it all depends on what a person wants out of meditation. You said and I agree, we are all different. I came to mindfulness for stress reduction. Its reduced, so now what do I do? I choose to change my practice to focus on clarity on mind and the thought process. The practice is not as relaxing as entering a deep state of consciousness, but it is enlightening.

Exactly. I agree that one's purpose is paramount. And yes, it's quite natural, I think, for one's meditation practice to evolve over time. When there's less emphasis on 'recovery' or feeling better, you can turn your attention to more subtle areas of exploration.

[mybubble]

Matt, thanks for the book When Awareness Becomes Natural: A Guide to Cultivating Mindfulness in Everyday Life by Sayadaw U Tejaniya. It was very enlightening and the cornerstone of my continual practice now. It has also helped with aspects of my sitting practice on the Mind Illuminated path.

For anyone following The Mind Illuminated here are some very useful links.

There is a large Reddit discussion group here overseen by the teachers in training under Culadasa: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheMindIlluminated/

Here is their actual forum although not as busy as Reddit http://dharmatreasurecommunity.org/foru ... meditation

And if you use Insight Timer there is a group on there if you search The Mind Illuminated

[Gareth]

I got this book for Christmas, and I read the first chapter this week.I have have to say that it pretty much blew my mind.

The impression that I get is that this is some kind of roadmap to nirvana/enlightenment. This has immediately set off spirituality klaxons - me being very suspicious/averse to the whole notion of the concept.

So far, everything that I have learned about mindfulness seems somewhat at odds the idea of pursuing meditation with a particular goal in mind. The book seems far too esoteric for me, and I simply cannot commit to the 2hrs a day that it asks for.

I am really interested to hear from others who have completed this book and what you thought of it.

[Mr Happy]

I have the book on order and am awaiting a message from the local bookstore.
It sounds like a book to keep coming back to.

[JonW]

I persevered with The Mind Illuminated but gave up halfway through. My feeling is that Yates greatly overcomplicates the practice of meditation and seems to barely address body awareness at all.
Too many levels, too many bloody stages.
I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who is in the early stages of mindfulness practice.
Jon

[Mr Happy]

Bugger. It sounds like one of those books that has an undercurrent of striving and doing muddying the practice. My copy just turned up. Lets see.

[JonW]

'...an undercurrent of striving and doing muddying the practice.'

That was my impression of it but I'd be very interested to hear what you think.
All best,
Jon