I'm aware of both those techniques, vonnie, but I struggle with the fact that I can't watch a thought until I've finished thinking it, and by that time it seems more effective simply to let it go, which I usually manage to do. Although it might come back again later!
Is there anything wrong with simply stopping the thought gently and returning focus to the breath? Because some books I've read suggest that there is and I'm not sure why. Isn't the point to focus on the breath and let everything else go?
Thanks for the suggestion Jon, but I'm afraid Jac O'Keefe isn't for me.
Watching your thoughts
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being_not_doing
- Posts: 3
Hi Annette.
I've had exactly the same problem as you - the moment I realise I'm thinking the thought disappears (sometimes I can't even remember what I was thinking about!) I'm only in week 2 so I'm hoping that the 'thoughts as clouds' thing will happen later in the course. At the moment, I just notice that I was thinking and then, the same as you, I tell myself to 'Let it go'. As I let it go I imagine a 'thought' as a cloud whooshing off into the distance. As I let it go I also sometimes notice that thinking has caused me to frown so at the same time as I let it go I relax my face and go back to being in the moment.
I'm hoping that thinking of the thought as a cloud, even though I don't necessarily specify the thought, will eventually mean that my mind will gradually close the gap between noticing I'm thinking, creating a cloud and then it whooshing away so that eventually the thought becomes a cloud that goes past.
Writing this, I feel as though I'm completely over-thinking the whole thing, but it seems to be working for me at the moment.
I've had exactly the same problem as you - the moment I realise I'm thinking the thought disappears (sometimes I can't even remember what I was thinking about!) I'm only in week 2 so I'm hoping that the 'thoughts as clouds' thing will happen later in the course. At the moment, I just notice that I was thinking and then, the same as you, I tell myself to 'Let it go'. As I let it go I imagine a 'thought' as a cloud whooshing off into the distance. As I let it go I also sometimes notice that thinking has caused me to frown so at the same time as I let it go I relax my face and go back to being in the moment.
I'm hoping that thinking of the thought as a cloud, even though I don't necessarily specify the thought, will eventually mean that my mind will gradually close the gap between noticing I'm thinking, creating a cloud and then it whooshing away so that eventually the thought becomes a cloud that goes past.
Writing this, I feel as though I'm completely over-thinking the whole thing, but it seems to be working for me at the moment.
The first step toward change is awareness. The second step is acceptance.
Nathaniel Branden
Nathaniel Branden
I think I might be a little late to this thread 
but hopefully I can add something.
Thoughts can be noticed, but 'watching them' in mindfulness does not involve interaction - engaging them is what one favourite Zen teacher of JKZ's (Shunryu Suzuki) called "inviting them to sit down to drink tea" - he recommended leaving one's front and back door open so that they can just pass through one's house.
I like, and sometimes use, the thoughts as clouds thing, and yet I feel like my focus can easily drift off with the cloud, lol.
I think a key is to go into one's body more - the bodyscan approach, and sense the physical dimension to the thoughts. Like the experiment Mark Williams talks about - holding a pencil in one's teeth horizontally or just gripping onto the tip causes a person watching cartoons to rate the cartoons higher or lower. The body creates thoughts, the thoughts to do not create the body. Body feels hungry - "I am hungry", body feels tired - "Oh I feel tired".
Every thought has a physical component behind it - triggering it - discomfort - causing us to habitually try to 'think of a way out'. Using the 'inner smile' (after JKZ), or just a visualisation of soothing one's body in whatever way (like imagining one's inner tension is a cat and one is stroking it
) , soothing the inner, physical dimension tends to allow associated thoughts to drift away - by practising mindfulness it is easy to forget that it is a very physical practice - hence it's deep connection with yoga.
Practising mindfulness in this way can give us an awareness of how physical sensations precede the arrival of a thought, and we can remain in the body in the present - soothing the physical tension at the root of the thought, while the thought is detached from us, and it just drifts off as we continue to soothe and watch our inner physical tension. Eventually we gain a proficient understanding of what physical tension produces unwanted thoughts, and we can soothe the tension even before the thought arises! Then the sky can remain truly blue for periods.
but hopefully I can add something.Thoughts can be noticed, but 'watching them' in mindfulness does not involve interaction - engaging them is what one favourite Zen teacher of JKZ's (Shunryu Suzuki) called "inviting them to sit down to drink tea" - he recommended leaving one's front and back door open so that they can just pass through one's house.
I like, and sometimes use, the thoughts as clouds thing, and yet I feel like my focus can easily drift off with the cloud, lol.
I think a key is to go into one's body more - the bodyscan approach, and sense the physical dimension to the thoughts. Like the experiment Mark Williams talks about - holding a pencil in one's teeth horizontally or just gripping onto the tip causes a person watching cartoons to rate the cartoons higher or lower. The body creates thoughts, the thoughts to do not create the body. Body feels hungry - "I am hungry", body feels tired - "Oh I feel tired".
Every thought has a physical component behind it - triggering it - discomfort - causing us to habitually try to 'think of a way out'. Using the 'inner smile' (after JKZ), or just a visualisation of soothing one's body in whatever way (like imagining one's inner tension is a cat and one is stroking it
) , soothing the inner, physical dimension tends to allow associated thoughts to drift away - by practising mindfulness it is easy to forget that it is a very physical practice - hence it's deep connection with yoga.Practising mindfulness in this way can give us an awareness of how physical sensations precede the arrival of a thought, and we can remain in the body in the present - soothing the physical tension at the root of the thought, while the thought is detached from us, and it just drifts off as we continue to soothe and watch our inner physical tension. Eventually we gain a proficient understanding of what physical tension produces unwanted thoughts, and we can soothe the tension even before the thought arises!
Then the sky can remain truly blue for periods."Compassion – particularly for yourself – is of overwhelming importance." - Mark Williams, Mindfulness (2011), p117.
"...allow yourself to smile inwardly." - Jon Kabat-Zinn, Full Catastrophe Living (2005), p436.
Weekly Blog: http://mindfuldiscipline.blogspot.co.uk
"...allow yourself to smile inwardly." - Jon Kabat-Zinn, Full Catastrophe Living (2005), p436.
Weekly Blog: http://mindfuldiscipline.blogspot.co.uk
I do practice yoga and do meditation and releasing all my unhealthy thoughts so I can able to start a day with good motivational energy that will help me achieve my goals.
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gregananda
- Posts: 1
Annette I have read zen masters who say that as soon as you notice your thought it disappears. In fact zen uses bringing attention to thought to dissolve thought, not watch it. But something that works for me: I gently watch for thoughts, while I am watching there are no thoughts, it is only when you slip off guard that a thought creeps in. This watching for thoughts, slows down the mind and is one of the best techniques I have found for slowing down the racing (monkey mind).
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Buddhakind
- Posts: 17
Annette, I face exactly the same "problem".
In his youtube clip at google JKZ says that when awareness arises the thought just disolves - which I am also experiencing.
On the other hand he also says that awareness is much bigger than thought and that it can contain it.
I believe that these two statements are contracting each other a bit..
What do u think?
In his youtube clip at google JKZ says that when awareness arises the thought just disolves - which I am also experiencing.
On the other hand he also says that awareness is much bigger than thought and that it can contain it.
I believe that these two statements are contracting each other a bit..
What do u think?
gregananda wrote: I gently watch for thoughts, while I am watching there are no thoughts, it is only when you slip off guard that a thought creeps in. This watching for thoughts, slows down the mind and is one of the best techniques I have found for slowing down the racing (monkey mind).
That's a good idea. It's coming at the problem from the opposite direction. I've been trying it this week, with some success. However, I then find I can't concentrate on my breathing as well as watching for thoughts! But this is definitely helpful. Thanks!
Buddhakind wrote:In his youtube clip at google JKZ says that when awareness arises the thought just disolves - which I am also experiencing.
On the other hand he also says that awareness is much bigger than thought and that it can contain it.
I believe that these two statements are contracting each other a bit..
What do u think?
I'm not quite sure what to make of either of those statements, to be honest!
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Matt Y
- Team Member
- Posts: 219
- Practice Mindfulness Since: 0- 0-1997
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Annette began this thread with these questions:
Not only are these good questions, they are also very good observations. I share the experience described above; namely, that a train of thought usually gets interrupted, or stops, once I become aware of it. It's as though thoughts get stage fright when the light of awareness shines upon them. Conversely, when I am immersed in the thinking process, I have far less awareness (of thoughts).
In other words, being mindful in the present moment interrupts and changes the natural flow of experience, including thoughts. But this is only a problem if you believe that present moment mindfulness is the golden standard, or primary aim, in your meditation practice.
What actually happens whilst you are meditating is that you do lose focus, and drift off into thought from time to time (perhaps quite frequently), and then at some point later you become a little less embedded in the thought and remember that you were 'meant' to be focused on the breath. So perhaps there is a millisecond or two, when you became aware that you were thinking, then you probably stopped thinking (none too gently I might add), in order to return to the breath.
This process, however, is probably closer to repression than awareness. There's a moment of awareness, then repression occurs as you return to the breath.
To be truly aware of your thoughts passing would require that they continued exactly as they would have if you were not aware of them. This may be impossible, as physicists have discovered: as soon as you observe something, it changes.
The analogy I like to use is that of a parent or teacher in a room full of kids. Without parental supervision, kids will behave in a certain way. With parental supervision, even if the parent is just present in the room, say reading a book, the kid's behavior will likely be a little bit (or a lot) different. It's the same with thoughts. If we're not aware of them, they go on in a certain way. If we are aware of them, they are changed in some way, or cease alltogether.
However, you can certainly be more or less aware of your thoughts. But often this is more usefully done in hindsight, rather than in the present moment. For example, when you realise you've been thinking, instead of immediately going back to the breath, you can ask: What was I thinking about? Or, perhaps more usefully, you could spend some time reflecting on the train of thought, and the associated ideas, emotions, moods, tones of voice, memories, images and so on, that accompanied it.
This is more practical, (doable) than 'watching' your thoughts may be. With experience, you may be able to get closer to the so-called ideal, so often recommended, and described in the various metaphors offered in previous posts.
However, in my experience, it's not really possible to 'make' this happen. It just happens naturally and spontaneously, at random times, usually when we're pretty settled, relaxed and calm.
I think both these statements are potentially misleading / ambiguous. Why? Because:
Thoughts arise and pass (dissolve) with or without awareness.
When awareness arises it may seem like thoughts dissolve, but in fact (as described above), this may more accurately be described as repression. The thought may not have been processed, but simply stopped, and the though will likely recur, as it may not have been acknowledged.
Awareness is not big or small. It's not even a thing. If it were, you wouldn't have to meditate - you could just go down to the shop and buy some! Awareness is a function, or process. I think what JKZ may be trying to say is that if you are only aware of a thought, particularly a disturbing one, it may seem like the centre of your life - something huge and threatening. However, if you are also aware of your breath and body, and the sounds of birds chirping outside, then the thought may seem smaller, and less important. In this way, things are put in perspective, and your awareness is bigger: big enough to 'contain' the thought.
Long post. Hope it's useful.
Can anyone explain how you're supposed to watch your thoughts go by (rather than try to repress them)?
If I'm thinking the thought, then I can't simultaneously be watching it. And once I've caught my mind wandering like this, I can't watch the thought because I'm no longer thinking it. All I seem able to do is to gently stop the thought and go back to watching the breath.
Metaphors like watching thoughts as if they're flowing past in a river, or going past like cars observed from the side of a motorway don't seem do-able to me.
Not only are these good questions, they are also very good observations. I share the experience described above; namely, that a train of thought usually gets interrupted, or stops, once I become aware of it. It's as though thoughts get stage fright when the light of awareness shines upon them. Conversely, when I am immersed in the thinking process, I have far less awareness (of thoughts).
In other words, being mindful in the present moment interrupts and changes the natural flow of experience, including thoughts. But this is only a problem if you believe that present moment mindfulness is the golden standard, or primary aim, in your meditation practice.
What actually happens whilst you are meditating is that you do lose focus, and drift off into thought from time to time (perhaps quite frequently), and then at some point later you become a little less embedded in the thought and remember that you were 'meant' to be focused on the breath. So perhaps there is a millisecond or two, when you became aware that you were thinking, then you probably stopped thinking (none too gently I might add), in order to return to the breath.
This process, however, is probably closer to repression than awareness. There's a moment of awareness, then repression occurs as you return to the breath.
To be truly aware of your thoughts passing would require that they continued exactly as they would have if you were not aware of them. This may be impossible, as physicists have discovered: as soon as you observe something, it changes.
The analogy I like to use is that of a parent or teacher in a room full of kids. Without parental supervision, kids will behave in a certain way. With parental supervision, even if the parent is just present in the room, say reading a book, the kid's behavior will likely be a little bit (or a lot) different. It's the same with thoughts. If we're not aware of them, they go on in a certain way. If we are aware of them, they are changed in some way, or cease alltogether.
However, you can certainly be more or less aware of your thoughts. But often this is more usefully done in hindsight, rather than in the present moment. For example, when you realise you've been thinking, instead of immediately going back to the breath, you can ask: What was I thinking about? Or, perhaps more usefully, you could spend some time reflecting on the train of thought, and the associated ideas, emotions, moods, tones of voice, memories, images and so on, that accompanied it.
This is more practical, (doable) than 'watching' your thoughts may be. With experience, you may be able to get closer to the so-called ideal, so often recommended, and described in the various metaphors offered in previous posts.
However, in my experience, it's not really possible to 'make' this happen. It just happens naturally and spontaneously, at random times, usually when we're pretty settled, relaxed and calm.
In his youtube clip at google JKZ says that when awareness arises the thought just dissolves - which I am also experiencing. On the other hand he also says that awareness is much bigger than thought and that it can contain it.
I think both these statements are potentially misleading / ambiguous. Why? Because:
Thoughts arise and pass (dissolve) with or without awareness.
When awareness arises it may seem like thoughts dissolve, but in fact (as described above), this may more accurately be described as repression. The thought may not have been processed, but simply stopped, and the though will likely recur, as it may not have been acknowledged.
Awareness is not big or small. It's not even a thing. If it were, you wouldn't have to meditate - you could just go down to the shop and buy some! Awareness is a function, or process. I think what JKZ may be trying to say is that if you are only aware of a thought, particularly a disturbing one, it may seem like the centre of your life - something huge and threatening. However, if you are also aware of your breath and body, and the sounds of birds chirping outside, then the thought may seem smaller, and less important. In this way, things are put in perspective, and your awareness is bigger: big enough to 'contain' the thought.
Long post. Hope it's useful.
Team Member
Follow us on Twitter for frequent mindfulness messages (click here)
Matt teaches meditation and mindfulness in Melbourne, Australia and worldwide via his online course.
http://melbournemeditationcentre.com.au/
http://www.learn-to-meditate.com.au/
Follow us on Twitter for frequent mindfulness messages (click here)
Matt teaches meditation and mindfulness in Melbourne, Australia and worldwide via his online course.
http://melbournemeditationcentre.com.au/
http://www.learn-to-meditate.com.au/
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piedwagtail91
- Posts: 613
- Practice Mindfulness Since: 0- 3-2011
- Location: Lancashire witch country
"The analogy I like to use is that of a parent or teacher in a room full of kids. Without parental supervision, kids will behave in a certain way. With parental supervision, even if the parent is just present in the room, say reading a book, the kid's behavior will likely be a little bit (or a lot) different. It's the same with thoughts. If we're not aware of them, they go on in a certain way. If we are aware of them, they are changed in some way, or cease altogether."
well put, i really like this analogy.
our group (which is still fairly new)has been talking about this over the past week.
we came to the conclusion that because our thoughts faded when we noticed them that the other ways , leaves on stream, clouds etc have never really made sense to any of us, but none of us wanted to say anything.
well put, i really like this analogy.
our group (which is still fairly new)has been talking about this over the past week.
we came to the conclusion that because our thoughts faded when we noticed them that the other ways , leaves on stream, clouds etc have never really made sense to any of us, but none of us wanted to say anything.
Last edited by piedwagtail91 on Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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