Self-protection? Selfishness?

[flow]

I'm new to this group, but have been practising mindfulness and meditation for a few years now.

I've been wondering about something lately. I feel somewhat less tolerant than I used to about exposing myself to "dark" things, listening to certain friends' lengthy rantings, for example. I don't want a person to censor what they say to me, I do feel very sympathetic towards their problems, and sincerely wish they feel better. I acknowledge the hurt and depression they are feeling, but I feel we are going around in circles.

These days, I often feel conflicted about how much time I should spend listening. I don't enjoy the drama like I used to. I don't say it to them, but perhaps they can feel my restlessness? With one good friend, I suggested a walk along the shore instead of sitting in a coffee shop, and that turned out to be a pleasant visit.

Today I noticed it again, when searching down a program list for a documentary festival in town, avoiding the heavier topics, and searching for lighter, more uplifting ones. I felt a little shallow, avoiding war, crime, poverty, etc., and choosing one about music. Selfish? Self-preservation? It's where I am right now. Will I change again?

[Gareth]

I know what you mean.

I went to a dinner party a while back and all my friends were having a long morose conversation about possible changes to the pension scheme in my current job. They're still my friends and I want to talk and have fun with them, but this kind of topic is one where I don't really feel at home these days - far too much unknown future in it for me, my brain doesn't work like that any more.

But time after time, mindfulness brings me back. This is the way that the world is, and I cannot change it. The way that I've decided to address it is by being completely open and honest about my meditation and my way of life and hope that others will begin to see the amount of peacefulness that it brings to me.

[JonW]

Since starting mindfulness I've been acutely aware of how much time other people spend ruminating about the past and the future. Like Flow I sometimes feel conflicted about listening as the dramas playing out often seem so pointless and, yes, circular. Round and round. I just try to offer good advice. I find myself saying, "That's how I used to think about things but I don't any longer, hardly ever." I find that people are all ears about mindfulness so long as they don't feel they're being "converted".
Welcome to the forum btw, Flow. Good to meet you.

[JonW]

Maybe Eckhart Tolle puts it best in The Power Of Now.
Talking about how we all have a tendency to dwell on the negative and makes ourselves victims in situations, he writes, "Leave the situation or accept it. All else is madness."
It strikes me as good advice.

[rara]

Selfishness is only based on perception...it's a human invention to have to differentiate between selfishness and self-protection.

What about those who have "committed" to being hermits in the name of their spirituality. Is that not selfish? Some would think so...

In a world of paradox, no one can be "right", but no one can be "wrong"

So if you feel the need to protect yourself, do so by making it clear to anyone you might affect, the reason you are being that way. If you can reason in a rational way, and if the recipient then decides they have a problem with it, it's their problem. You have done what you can.

[rara]

In response, if done correctly, they can then choose to leave the darkness out and therefore be a bit happier (as in, you lead by example) or they can choose to dwell in it.

There has been times when I have had to distance myself from some people because they don't WANT to listen to my perspective. I can't compensate and pretend to agree with them if in my heart and mind I have evolved. Yet, I haven't lost a friend...just grown apart.

[BioSattva]

No one wants to lose contact or a level of sharing with someone whom one has invested time in or with, but sometimes friends naturally come up against an obstacle which we lack the resources to help them with. When that friend does not feel that one is approachable in the sense they feel they cannot make themselves vulnerable enough to ask one how one deals, or would deal, with their problem, then one may take this as just 'what is', sad and painful as it may be. I have often found myself in this situation, and afterwards I tend to think about what I could have said or done to make myself more available or useful to them (if possible) - if they ask me outright for what I do, then I have no problem in mentioning mindfulness, but often I do it in the most grounded, everyday terms I can muster at that time. Often people express an interest but things don't go much further than words. That's OK - now they know my stance on their 'wallowing' and won't feel offended when I lessen my level of contact or availability. I think it's important to practice acceptance of friends moving away from us - they could be doing us a favour since their affections may not have been as genuine as we had thought.

Otherwise, this behaviour of 'being there' for the person to rant on and on is not really a solution - it seems that it is more like fuelling the person's depression because one is validating their negative thoughts and habitual appetite for drama. I woke up this morning and started thinking of some drama situation in my head and I managed to catch myself and think "Enjoy the peaceful state of mind outside of drama for what it is". Like your stroll along the beach - encouraging wholesome calm enjoyment is a far better endeavour in my opinion - maybe they may get a new appetite for it and relish your friendship even more.

I call these people who rope us into their dramas 'dripping taps'; one comes away soaked in their negativity, and if one has reached the point where they have respected you enough to ask about your solution (likely to be mindfulness practice) and they haven't shown an interest in it, then the tap is likely not going to be fixed, because as we know there are very few interventions for stress that work as well as mindfulness. Allowing oneself to become soaked like that all the time is not compassionate to oneself or others. Spending the equivalent time practicing and searching within and outside oneself for a way to help that person is time better spent in my experience. Those situations are all good food for motivation I find - in Mahayana Buddhism, this is at the core of Bodhisattva ideal.

[piedwagtail91]

I call these people who rope us into their dramas 'dripping taps'; one comes away soaked in their negativity, and if one has reached the point where they have respected you enough to ask about your solution (likely to be mindfulness practice) and they haven't shown an interest in it, then the tap is likely not going to be fixed, because as we know there are very few interventions for stress that work as well as mindfulness. Allowing oneself to become soaked like that all the time is not compassionate to oneself or others. Spending the equivalent time practicing and searching within and outside oneself for a way to help that person is time better spent in my experience. Those situations are all good food for motivation I find - in Mahayana Buddhism, this is at the core of Bodhisattva ideal.

nicely put

[flow]

Thank you all for your thoughts.

Looking back at what I wrote, I was happy to see that I had said I was "wondering" about my feelings. It is a detached, mild observation about changes in how I look at my interactions with some friends, with a touch of wistfulness, I suppose, about the realization that some of my friendships were based on shared unhappiness. Yes, friends do grow apart, in a natural way, and new companions emerge too.

The "dripping taps" image fits beautifully. I think being honest about my need to be more "wholesome" for myself (thank you for that word!) will help, and may add a new dimension to our friendship.

[cgrayx]

Firstly, I am an advocate of mindfulness and I think it is wonderful for treatment of depression, stress and daily living. With that said, I am not a frequent or skilled practitioner (I intend to get there). I agree with what people are saying about people by willing to listen to solutions or advice etc., and I do think its important to put a limit on a relationship where you are not getting anywhere. Someone did say that mindfulness is one of the most effective treatments/fixes/solutions but it is important to remember, whilst trying to help your friends, that you have not got to necessarily suggest that a full fledged mindfulness routine is necessary for them to overcome it or be happy.

I do think this is a good forum, and everyone's very interesting and friendly. However, I felt a certain 'enlightened' undertone to this thread (whilst I do agree with a lot of it) I feel it is important to make clear that someone hasn't got to undergo an hour a day mindfulness (or however long) to overcome it and I certainly wouldn't like to be distanced by a friend because I am struggling to find a coping mechanism. With that said, people do get rather overwhelming at times, so I see the point.

I do not think because mindfulness works for you it necessarily makes it the most effacious or the only way. Likewise, it is a very strenuous, daunting route to venture down; more so whilst in a dark place.