But I certainly found it wordy, and many of the exercises "superfluous" to my needs and interests, and ...er... boring. That said, I think he knows his Buddhism, so you shouldn't have to unlearn much, if anything. And what's a couple of hours a day for eight weeks, which should be all you need to read the book and do the exercises. As you say, it's the key work in modern secular mindfulness. And, although it does go on, at least, it's not a difficult read, isn't obnoxiously new-agey, and says a lot of important things. I highlighted the passages I found important so I wouldn't have to read the whole book again, and haven't continued doing body scan or yoga - but at least I now know what people are on about when they talk about K-Z exercises. I find it quite amusing that the British Universities and NHS seem to have taken Kabat-Zinn's programme "in toto" and frown on any criticism of it. Couldn't they have been a little bit original and tried to refine it? Maybe a pamphlet outlining the theory and practice of meditation, and simple breath meditation for half an hour a day would be sufficient. Who knows? Has the research been done?Full Catastrophe Living - necessary? Worthwhile, even?
I got the book and the CDs about five years ago and went through the entire eight week programme. I didn't find it esoteric, but then I'm used to reading books on Buddhism But I certainly found it wordy, and many of the exercises "superfluous" to my needs and interests, and ...er... boring. That said, I think he knows his Buddhism, so you shouldn't have to unlearn much, if anything. And what's a couple of hours a day for eight weeks, which should be all you need to read the book and do the exercises. As you say, it's the key work in modern secular mindfulness. And, although it does go on, at least, it's not a difficult read, isn't obnoxiously new-agey, and says a lot of important things. I highlighted the passages I found important so I wouldn't have to read the whole book again, and haven't continued doing body scan or yoga - but at least I now know what people are on about when they talk about K-Z exercises. I find it quite amusing that the British Universities and NHS seem to have taken Kabat-Zinn's programme "in toto" and frown on any criticism of it. Couldn't they have been a little bit original and tried to refine it? Maybe a pamphlet outlining the theory and practice of meditation, and simple breath meditation for half an hour a day would be sufficient. Who knows? Has the research been done?
But I certainly found it wordy, and many of the exercises "superfluous" to my needs and interests, and ...er... boring. That said, I think he knows his Buddhism, so you shouldn't have to unlearn much, if anything. And what's a couple of hours a day for eight weeks, which should be all you need to read the book and do the exercises. As you say, it's the key work in modern secular mindfulness. And, although it does go on, at least, it's not a difficult read, isn't obnoxiously new-agey, and says a lot of important things. I highlighted the passages I found important so I wouldn't have to read the whole book again, and haven't continued doing body scan or yoga - but at least I now know what people are on about when they talk about K-Z exercises. I find it quite amusing that the British Universities and NHS seem to have taken Kabat-Zinn's programme "in toto" and frown on any criticism of it. Couldn't they have been a little bit original and tried to refine it? Maybe a pamphlet outlining the theory and practice of meditation, and simple breath meditation for half an hour a day would be sufficient. Who knows? Has the research been done?-
piedwagtail91
- Posts: 613
- Practice Mindfulness Since: 0- 3-2011
- Location: Lancashire witch country
Mindfulness or mbct which was developed from mbsr was developed for a specific reason, to treat depression.
Along with mbsr It does appear to be the most practiced form.
It is the way it is for that reason.
From experience ,used as a treatment for depression a simple handout and basic meditation wouldn't be enough.
I've recently read a lot of the more popular Buddhist stuff and along with a friend practiced it and from that I feel a lot of depressed people just aren't up to practicing the Buddhist version.
Along with mbsr It does appear to be the most practiced form.
It is the way it is for that reason.
From experience ,used as a treatment for depression a simple handout and basic meditation wouldn't be enough.
I've recently read a lot of the more popular Buddhist stuff and along with a friend practiced it and from that I feel a lot of depressed people just aren't up to practicing the Buddhist version.
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piedwagtail91
- Posts: 613
- Practice Mindfulness Since: 0- 3-2011
- Location: Lancashire witch country
MBCT and mbsr don't go as far as that. They may have come from buddhism but they're developed as a specific form of mindfulness, for pain or depression.
Most of the people I've been on courses with are happy enough to notice thoughts and get some relief from the inner bully .
Most of the people I've been on courses with are happy enough to notice thoughts and get some relief from the inner bully .
piedwagtail91 wrote:MBCT and mbsr don't go as far as that. They may have come from buddhism but they're developed as a specific form of mindfulness, for pain or depression.
Most of the people I've been on courses with are happy enough to notice thoughts and get some relief from the inner bully .
I can't see that MBSR has improved on Mindfulness as taught by Buddhists, and Kabat-Zinn (I believe) makes no such claim. Mindfulness in Buddhism is also very much "for pain and depression" - pain and depression are suffering and the Buddha in his Four Noble Truths offered us a path to the gradual relief of pain and suffering, of which a key element is Mindfulness Meditation.
Look at Kabat-Zinn's wonderful "Mindfulness meditation" bibliography in FCL - 15 of the 17 texts he recommends are by practising Buddhists. (I've read most of them and found them to be wonderful supplements to Kabat-Zinn...)
Kabat-Zinn doesn't say much about the origins of Mindfulness in Buddhism in FCL, maybe he wanted to get it "under the radar" so strict members of other religions wouldn't fall at the first hurdle by not accepting something blatantly labelled Buddhist.
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piedwagtail91
- Posts: 613
- Practice Mindfulness Since: 0- 3-2011
- Location: Lancashire witch country
I didn't say it was improved, just developed from, as in 'came from'.
I know on mbct in this area one of the first things you're told is that mbct was developed from mbsr which came from Buddhism. Then to prevent people running out screaming
you're told it has no connection to any religion.
I don't think it's any is better, they're just different.
Though a Buddhist who did come on a course for work purposes didn't seem too happy.
I know on mbct in this area one of the first things you're told is that mbct was developed from mbsr which came from Buddhism. Then to prevent people running out screaming
you're told it has no connection to any religion.I don't think it's any is better, they're just different.
Though a Buddhist who did come on a course for work purposes didn't seem too happy.
piedwagtail91 wrote:I didn't say it was improved, just developed from, as in 'came from'.
Thank's for clarifying, I can agree with that.
Was MBCT an improvement, or an advance that might be an improvement? Wikipedia says "Like CBT, MBCT functions on the theory that when individuals who have historically had depression become distressed, they return to automatic cognitive processes that can trigger a depressive episode. The goal of MBCT is to interrupt these automatic processes and teach the participants to focus less on reacting to incoming stimuli, and instead accepting and observing them without judgment. This mindfulness practice allows the participant to notice when automatic processes are occurring and to alter their reaction to be more of a reflection."
What is new here? It appears to be "just" mindfulness, but with a focus on "automatic thoughts". An advanced Buddhist "insight" meditator would be mindful of *everything* that comes into his/her experience, including these automatic thoughts.
I can see that it's probably useful to get confused, depressed people to focus their attention on automatic thoughts rather than on "anything that comes up". So I can see that MBCT might be bringing a useful emphasis to the practice for a specific set of people. But I can why Buddhists might feel a bit miffed about the Buddha not getting sufficient praise in some MBSR/MBCT material.
You say: "I don't think it [MBCT] is any better, they (MBCT and Buddhism] are just different." I don't think this is correct, or at least needs to be qualified. MBCT may be very different, and no better, than some kinds of Buddhism - it's different from Nichiren Buddhism, but both might be just as effective at treating depression.
But the overlap between MBCT and the Buddhist tradition taught by the Insight Meditation movement (Kornfield, et.al...,) are so close that you could almost say they are the same - differing in only a few details (e.g., Buddhists might admit to believing in rebirth, and might bow to a senior monk, which MBCT practitioners would be unlikely to do...) But the meditation practices are the same (indeed Kabat-Zinn took took them from these, and similar Zen, sources...)
Caveat - some Buddhists don't believe in rebirth, or other unsubtantiated dogmas, and don't bow, or perform rituals. Maybe MBCT practitioners *are* Buddhists, even if they deny it
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