Trouble with Acceptance of Thoughts

[aly4519]

I've meditated consistently for years.

However, I'm still very bothered by intrusive thoughts. My seated practice of meditation hasn't helped me at all with this.

In fact, things that I know are important in my life, almost everything, my mind tells me "I don't like this" or "This is boring." I am really bothered by those thoughts. And I don't know how to view them as neutral thoughts (not judging them is what we're told to do). As such, I avoid these activities.

How am I supposed to "sit" or "be" with a thought in every day practice? Is it just turning back to the breath? If so, how am I supposed to focus on the thing that I'm actually doing?

I am not sure what to do, and I am very frustrated.

[aly4519]

Also I never find that being aware that a thought is a thought helps it lose its control over me. But this is what they say.

[JonW]

Hi Aly,
It would be interesting to hear more about your actual practice. How often? What kinds of meditation you do? And for how long? Do you practice body scans as well as sitting/breathing meditations? Do you practice walking meditation? Mindful movement?
I'm a little confused. You say that you have meditated consistently for years and then you ask: 'How am I supposed to "sit" or "be" with a thought in everyday practice? Is it just turning back to the breath? If so, how am I supposed to focus on the thing that I'm actually doing?'
Noticing the thought and returning attention to the object of awareness or anchor (breath, body sensations, sound etc.) is basic mindfulness practice. We are not trying to stop the thought or change it in any way. We are simply choosing where to place our attention. The general idea is that we strengthen the 'muscle' of awareness each time we come back to our chosen anchor.
Aside from the above questions, I'd be very interested to hear how you learned mindfulness in the first place. On an 8-week course? Via a book?
I look forward to hearing back from you.
All good things,
Jon

[aly4519]

Hi Jon - I have used Headspace for a few years. 328 hours of meditation.

I also have trouble with not identifying with thoughts. For example, if I say I don’t like making my bed, I’m trying not to identify with that. Or I don’t want to write the book that I’ve been working on. I hate that I have thought because the book is something that should be completed. Supposedly my thoughts aren’t me, but I don’t see how acknowledging a thought and coming back to the present allows me to not identify with thoughts. Does that make sense?

[JonW]

Hi Aly,
Well, the general idea is that thoughts only really have power over us if we feed them with our attention. When you come back into the moment, not making any demands on the moment to be any particular way, we are choosing to place our attention somewhere other than our thoughts. We are not trying to stop the thought. The key is where we place our attention.
'Where attention goes, energy flows.'
I'm not a fan of Headspace and I don't really consider it as a mindfulness practice. Or, at least, I see it as a kind of mindfulness-lite.
My advice would be to immerse yourself in the works of Jon Kabat-Zinn who is the real deal. Maybe start with his book Wherever You Are..., then move on to Full Catastrophe Living and Coming To Our Senses.
Best wishes,
Jon

[aly4519]

Jon, thanks. Does that really allow us to not identify with our thoughts? Right now, coming back to the present doesn’t really allow me to decrease that identification with thoughts. But I googled something about intrusive thoughts, it said they’re automatic and nothing I can do about them. Which made me feel better. But I don’t understand how mindfulness can accomplish that. Sure it’s about recognizing when I’m thinking, but changing the level with which I identify with those thoughts, I don’t get that from meditation.

[JonW]

Hi Aly,
Well, it's worked for me and it seems to work for most of the people I teach.
With practice, it becomes second nature to be discerning about one's thoughts, knowing the difference between those we need to act on and those we simply allow to pass.
Non-identification with thoughts is pretty basic to mindfulness. It doesn't mean that you'll necessarily think any less, only that you learn not to be bothered by mental chatter.
Cheers,
Jon

[Lucien]

Jon, thanks. Does that really allow us to not identify with our thoughts? Right now, coming back to the present doesn’t really allow me to decrease that identification with thoughts. But I googled something about intrusive thoughts, it said they’re automatic and nothing I can do about them. Which made me feel better. But I don’t understand how mindfulness can accomplish that. Sure it’s about recognizing when I’m thinking, but changing the level with which I identify with those thoughts, I don’t get that from meditation.

Hello Aly

Intrusive thoughts are difficult to change, if even possible. I practise Mindfulness as a part of ACT, Acceptance & Commitment Therapy.
From that aaproach it is taught that indeed we can not always change our thoughts. So intrusive ones, we just have to accept.
That does not mean we have to identify with them.
For example I have a specific intrusive thought that I am not good enough whatever I do. Had it for years and most likely it will remain to be there for quite a while more.
After practising mindfulness for about 5 or 6 months now, that thought still comes by in many occassions, in many different shapes.
I accept that thought as being one of my intrusive thoughts.

I've come to understand though that indeed it is just a thought. It is allright that the thought is there, just like any other thoughts is allowed to be there. In that way, a thought is just a happening, as if it were a car driving by. It'll pass.
And I've learned I don't háve to believe that thought. In between the thought itself and my respons to it, is a space - a choice. I can say "ow yes, I'm definately not good enough like my mind tells me. I'm useless and always will" or I can say "ah, there's my mind again trying to tell me I'm failing again. It's just a thought, not a holy truth."

In ACT, that's what's called "taking a step back".
Accept your thoughts, but don't automattically consider them truth. Our minds tell us a lot, but much of it is just the same nonsense repeated over and over again. Intrusive thoughts.
Question yourself, who would you be without that perticular thought ?

[barbs55]

Hi Aly. I'm also a long term (10 years) Headspace user and I have found it very helpful, although I would say that I have done many of the packs (like the Self-Esteem ones) several times as these techniques, although seemingly simple, are not easy to use, and it all takes a lot of everyday practice in addition to meditation. I would also agree with Jon that Jon Kabat-Zinn's books and videos are very helpful too, and doing an 8 week course helps consolidate your practice and answer some of your questions and I would also recommend that.

You say you are 'bothered' by intrusive thoughts. 'Intrusive thoughts' are still just thoughts - and the mind will never stop thinking as that's what it does. We can only change how much we engage and buy into these thoughts and let them 'intrude' and bother us. If we can just step back and see them as passing by, they DO become less intrusive and less frequent. (It is like the mind realises we're not that interested anymore so goes somewhere else to grab our attention!)

You say "I don't know how to view them as 'neutral' thoughts?" You don 't have to - you just view them as another thought. I think a lightness of approach helps - I often laugh at my own thinking as it goes off on the familiar route of "I don't like this/this is boring/I am not good at this" We have been having these type of thoughts for a lifetime so it isn't surprising that this is a place our minds easily go to. Labelling them 'thinking' immediately steps us back from engaging with them, and returning to some present moment activity (washing up/breathing/reading/watching TV) helps them fade away again.

"How am I supposed to "sit" or "be" with a thought in every day practice? Is it just turning back to the breath?" it can be if that is an easy way for you to let go of the thinking, But that would only be for a minute or so, and then I would focus on what I am actually doing in the present moment. If you can focus from the thinking straight to what you were doing before you got distracted by the intrusive thoughts, then that's fine too. We are just trying to bring ourselves out of our mind's thinking and into the present moment in the real world. At the beginning I used returning to the breath as an anchor when I got distracted. Now I can just notice the distraction and get back to what I am doing. But thoughts WILL still arise for me and for everyone - that is 'normal' - it is what your mind does, and accepting that is part of the process.

[the.mindful.lens]

Hi Aly, I have not been as proactively into mindfulness for as long as you. It is only the Covid lockdown that I Have really made more effort to get into the real point of what Mindfulness is really all about. I am older than most practitioners ( I am 69 ) and to make it worse, I am male. This is perhaps not the typical profile of a newbie to Mindfulness and I feel I have had to try harder than someone young and more int tune with life at this moment. I have spent a lot of time searching for activities that really work for me. I took a long time to find relevant guided meditations ( that were not simply repeats of stock phrases and spoken by young women with a voice straight from either a Spa or a porn video). I have developed my own activities to support Mindfulness that fit in with my own lifestyle - for example I do mindful photography activities and I use digital music creation activities to support my wish to really concentrate on the "now". I remix video sound tracks with guided meditations that suit me onto a piece of sound recording software and remix them to cut out the stuff I really can't get into ( sensing the air that is 2 inches from my body for example). I then put a background soundtrack that suits this with a lead in and a lead out . I put a lot of this stuff onto a website that is beginning to build up these resources in case anyone who is similar to my own profile.

The point is that I have realised that not everyone will respond to the same et of resources to support their meditation. I personally specifically link my time spent on, for example creating a piece of music, to help me to later concentrate harder for a breathing exercise where I want to avoid thinking about losing my son ( he hasn't died, just disowned me !) The simple message of self talking ( i.e. Thinking " that's just a thought" or "that's just the past" ) then becomes easier. The link is that when I am creating music I HAVE to concentrate on the now and then it makes it easier to put thoughts into perspective when doing a breathing exercise. They all fit together and fit into my personal circumstances.

If you want to see my blog with the sort of ideas just take a quick look look at https://themindfullens.wixsite.com/website and you will see.

Hope that helps

Peter