Struggling with non-judgement and 'just thoughts'

[snoutburger]

Hi all. Trying to follow an 8 week course (Mindfulness In Eight Weeks by Chaskalson) and have run into a few dead ends.

Non-judgement.

I came across a 2013 HuffPo article by Elisha Goldstein. I think the essence is to be aware of automatic judgements, discern their accuracy. fair enough. So, he says, we can judge, like a food critic judging a restaurant, and our awareness of the judgements is mindfulness.

But what about judgements we have volitionally, that is, we choose to start the verbal thought process ourselves?

For example, recently, my cousin has said some really nasty things to my brother. I often think when he comes to my my mind 'He can be really nasty, he was out of order there' and I choose to go down that thinking route, often with awareness that I am thinking and what I am thinking. Am I somehow less mindful because I am being judgemental? So, should we seek to discern the content of such volitional judgements too?

Thinking.

Whilst researching non-judgement I came across a piece in Psychology Today by a writer named Joey Fung. It mentions that mindfulness teaches us to see thoughts as just thoughts. But that seems to devalue them and sometimes thoughts are useful.

For example, say I am showering and I discover a lump. I might think, "Hmm, never noticed that before. I'll need to keep an eye on that and go to the GP if it doesn't clear." If I think to myself "That is just a thought," then I am discounting what could be very important information. So when is it *okay* to pay heed to what thoughts are telling us and how do we know when to pay heed like this?

That piece also discusses having the thought, for example, "I could not help my friend the way I would have liked," instead of "I failed as a friend." But what if we DID let our friend down and we failed them? Should I still 'correct' myself with the judgement-free thought instead of the judgemental one, even though the latter may be true or 'truer'?

I am confused.

[Jens]

Hi and welcome I wish you all the best with your course.

It mentions that mindfulness teaches us to see thoughts as just thoughts. But that seems to devalue them and sometimes thoughts are useful.

This is true. And "thoughts are just thoughts" is a sentence that couldn't be more true Like "a rose is a rose" doesn't mean to devalue the rose but using a rose as a bucket is still a bad idea.
To pick up from your excellent example, the thought is directing your attention to the lump. In that it's very useful, but what needs your attention is the lump and not whatever thoughts you might have about the lump. If you get stuck on those thoughts, it might even prevent you from seeing a doctor and that gets dangerous.

That piece also discusses having the thought, for example, "I could not help my friend the way I would have liked," instead of "I failed as a friend." But what if we DID let our friend down and we failed them? Should I still 'correct' myself with the judgement-free thought instead of the judgemental one, even though the latter may be true or 'truer'?

There is no need to correct your thoughts. Your thoughts only need to be thought, that is you only need to see them.
It isn't so much about the truth in a thought, but more about the permanence. A thought is a very fleeting thing, one moment you think "I failed as a friend" and the next moment that thought is gone. But we usually don't leave it at that, we try to somehow make it last. Maybe we say, "Ok, it seems I am a bad friend" and then we try to stamp that somewhere, or on the contrary, we may have the label "good friend" somewhere, so we try to argue with that thought.

But what about judgements we have volitionally, that is, we choose to start the verbal thought process ourselves?

Here I'm sure the teachers and more experienced practitioners have better things to say than I do. But rather than giving your awareness only to the judgmental thought train, give it to everything, including the feeling that comes before the thoughts. In my experience, when you gift your awareness to the whole situation, the thoughts don't keep looping around the same topic, saying the exact same things in different words, but they disperse naturally.

I hope this was a little helpful and wish you all the best,

Jens

[alexcr87]

Those are indeed wise words.

Like "a rose is a rose" doesn't mean to devalue the rose but using a rose as a bucket is still a bad idea.

That was a really funny example, but I couldn't agree more. You can't prevent thinking some things, or more generally thinking at all, as Jens said! Indeed, thoughts are useful. As are your sensations. The key here is to act as an observer that sees your own self having those thoughts, feeling those feelings. This makes you realize you are not your thoughts, your feelings, and eventually see that :

A thought is a very fleeting thing, [...]

And one of the pitfalls about thoughts is that they often just lead to more thinking. Simply returning to the breath, and being aware, slows down this process.

Also keep in mind that those "judgment-free thoughts" are idealized concepts. Instead of focusing on every time where you "judged" something throughout the day - we all do - try to be aware of that single time where you didn't, and celebrate it.

[snoutburger]

Thanks both, some great insight from your replies.

It seems I misunderstood 'thoughts are just thoughts' - it doesn't mean they are not important, just that be careful of always accepting them as 'truth'. From what you say regarding the example of the discovering a lump in the shower scenario Jens, we should also be careful of not letting thoughts take all of our attention away from the realities which exist in the external world.

But following that, how do we know whether thoughts are true, have value or are ones we should act upon?

And regarding judgement thoughts that I choose to make myself (as opposed to automatic ones) should I still put distance between me and the judgement - and all thoughts - and assess their 'truth/accuracy?

Thanks again both of you.

[alexcr87]

I think you might be over-thinking the your thought process a bit. Meditation is not about judging your thoughts, it's about recognizing you are not your thoughts, and that those are simply another thing you can experience - much in the same way you can experience emotion or sensory information. It's not about finding which thoughts are true (in the usual sense of the word) neither. Thoughts can appear true to one person while appear false to another, both being accurate in their assessment. I don't think meditation or mindfulness is about finding which thoughts "have value" or finding "which ones we should act upon" - at least as an active process. The closest I can think of what you're bringing up is Kabat-Zinn citing the Tao Te Ching : "Can you remain unmoving until the right action arises by itself?" I think this is really the way you should approach those questions about acting "the right way".

[Jens]

"Can you remain unmoving until the right action arises by itself?"

Wow Alex, thank you for sharing this quote I have the feeling that mindfulness is not something you learn but something you are reminded of and this was the reminder I needed now

we should also be careful of not letting thoughts take all of our attention away from the realities which exist in the external world. But following that, how do we know whether thoughts are true, have value or are ones we should act upon?

For the record, I didn't say "external"
The second point you make is a little subtle, but I'll try my best.
Have you ever felt that when you tell someone about an experience that you had, that your story and the actual experience are fundamentally different? For example, recently I witnessed a carriage's horse breaking free and chasing away (no one got hurt, don't worry). There were people inside the carriage and I started running after them, but of course there is no way I could outrun a full-grown horse, so I didn't get far . Now, when I tell the story I say things like "I started running because there were people inside", but that's actually not true. I saw people, my legs started moving, those two things happened at the same time (and so did a whole bunch of other things). The notion that I wanted to help was added later on and also the choice of which happenings to include in the story came later.
It's this way whenever you talk to other people; we are expected to present a coherent story. The problem is that we think we need to do this also for ourselves, that we somehow need to be coherent people. So running turns into running to the rescue, something that pleases the ego better.

To come back to your question, the underlying assumption is that acting on thoughts is something you do, but that's an illusion. In the lump in the shower example, your decision what to do about your discovery is immediate, but then it takes time to incorporate it into your story. If you rarely go to the doctor, you feel like you have some explaining to do why now you decide to do so.

And regarding judgement thoughts that I choose to make myself (as opposed to automatic ones) should I still put distance between me and the judgement - and all thoughts - and assess their 'truth/accuracy?

As Alex points out, there is no need to access accuracy in thoughts. All thoughts are true in the strong sense that this thought is precisely what is right now. Whatever is on your mind is what there is right now, so it's true. If there is judgment there is judgment and that's how it is. Mindfulness also isn't really about putting distance between you and your thoughts, but about bringing awareness to everything, including your thoughts. In a certain sense, awareness of your thoughts is more intimate than "thinking your thoughts".

I'd recommend you investigate into what the difference between automatic thoughts and chosen thoughts is