I'm having trouble understanding these quotes from Mr Kabat-Zinn:
- "Just watch the moment without trying to change it at all."
- "Even if your back hurts, see if you can stay still"
Why is he encouraging not to react? For me, it should rather state:
"Accept what's happening and mindfully do the best thing possible - adjust your posture."
Why is he encouraging "not changing" the moment? What advantage does it give you? Why can't we just mindfully act towards anything reality brings us?
Why shouldn't we try to "change the moment'
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SophieAlvarez
- Posts: 2
- Practice Mindfulness Since: 0- 0-2017
He's referring to the fact that we have no control over any external situation. We only have control over our mind state. The advantage of not trying to change the moment, and instead simply accepting all things as they are, is not creating more pain for yourself when you aren't totally happy or comfortable with any given moment or situation. Of course there's nothing wrong with doing what you said- "accept what's happening and mindfully do the best thing possible." That is what you should do! But the idea of not changing the moment comes into play when you've already done the best thing possible and the situation is still less than ideal. An equation I learned may sum all of this up far more simply:
Pain x Resistance= Suffering
There will always be pain in life- that's a constant, unavoidable factor. The more we resist the pain and the way things are, the more suffering we cause ourselves. In remembering to watch each moment as it is and not resist them, we are able to withstand pain and suffering, rather than add the extra stress and discontentment that comes from wanting a situation to be anything other than what it is.
Hope this helps!
Pain x Resistance= Suffering
There will always be pain in life- that's a constant, unavoidable factor. The more we resist the pain and the way things are, the more suffering we cause ourselves. In remembering to watch each moment as it is and not resist them, we are able to withstand pain and suffering, rather than add the extra stress and discontentment that comes from wanting a situation to be anything other than what it is.
Hope this helps!
garmo wrote:I'm having trouble understanding these quotes from Mr Kabat-Zinn:
- "Just watch the moment without trying to change it at all."
- "Even if your back hurts, see if you can stay still"
Why is he encouraging not to react?
I very much agree with SophieAlvaras. Love the equation.
Look at it this way: Technically mindfulness is nothing more than training the brain a certain way. So, he's really just training the brain to give up resistance in an innocent setting. Because, like Sophie said, resistance is really the only thing that makes us suffer.
Peter
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gerronwithit
- Posts: 24
- Practice Mindfulness Since: 17 Jul 1933
garmo wrote:I'm having trouble understanding these quotes from Mr Kabat-Zinn:
- "Just watch the moment without trying to change it at all."
- "Even if your back hurts, see if you can stay still"
Why is he encouraging not to react? For me, it should rather state:
"Accept what's happening and mindfully do the best thing possible - adjust your posture."
Why is he encouraging "not changing" the moment? What advantage does it give you? Why can't we just mindfully act towards anything reality brings us?
Like you I am new to practice but find the vague/unclear way the practice is described in some of the books frustrating.
I don't know which of Kabat-Zinn's books that is from but in Full Catastrophe, he says 2 things relevant to your question.
Firstly, he says accepting the present reality does not mean passive acceptance. It just means seeing things as they really are. HE then says we don't have to like things as they are, 'or that you are resigned to tolerating things as they 'have to be''. The latter quote seems to imply that you can work on changing what is, once you have realised what is. pp 27-28.
As for changing posture he says that if we notice discomfort try to be with it for a moment and see if it fades. If not we mindfully move posture. He is not against us moving posture when practicing, just against the usual unconscious automatic shifting we may do in everyday life when we're not being mindful.
I think the quotes above come are both in the context of formal practice - meditating. In everyday life, we can work to change what we don't like.
I must admit, I find Kabat-Zinn's failure to demarcate when he is talking about formal practice and informal practice annoying and confusing. I think he wants to avoid being didactic but when teaching new things that may be the best approach to take. Particularly on something which is alien to us like mindfulness (despite him saying it is not - it is. In the West we are just not used to adopting such an approach).
I also find his zen-like statements unhelpful. He wants to create inquiry but it would be nice if we learned what we actually have to 'do' (or 'not do', more accurately) first.
Another whine about him that I have is that when he talks about 'doing' I don't know whether he means doing mode, physical tasks or what. I wish he'd re-write his works.
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gerronwithit
- Posts: 24
- Practice Mindfulness Since: 17 Jul 1933
Having said the above, something came to me in practice just now.
If we don't 'have to like everything' (p28) how is this squared with one of the other principles of practice, 'non-judgement'?
After all, Kabat-Zinn (partly) describes non-judging as 'not being caught-up in your likes and dislikes' (p21, Full Catastrophe).
If we don't 'have to like everything' (p28) how is this squared with one of the other principles of practice, 'non-judgement'?
After all, Kabat-Zinn (partly) describes non-judging as 'not being caught-up in your likes and dislikes' (p21, Full Catastrophe).
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piedwagtail91
- Posts: 613
- Practice Mindfulness Since: 0- 3-2011
- Location: Lancashire witch country
Quote "The latter quote seems to imply that you can work on changing what is, once you have realised what is. pp 27-28."
You don't change what is, you change the way you perceive it.
You don't have to like everything, it's down to choice.
You accept that you don't like something and move on, you don't react to it by trying to push it away as you would 'normally' do..
Once you accept something like that it doesn't become a problem or it ceases to be one.
Practice/meditation is just that.
It's where you build your awareness of mind and body.
It's what you take from your practice that you use throughout the rest of the day.
As your awareness develops you begin to see what's real rather than what your thoughts try to tell you is real.
You don't change what is, you change the way you perceive it.
You don't have to like everything, it's down to choice.
You accept that you don't like something and move on, you don't react to it by trying to push it away as you would 'normally' do..
Once you accept something like that it doesn't become a problem or it ceases to be one.
Practice/meditation is just that.
It's where you build your awareness of mind and body.
It's what you take from your practice that you use throughout the rest of the day.
As your awareness develops you begin to see what's real rather than what your thoughts try to tell you is real.
I am new to mindfulness and although I didn't like the way Mr Kabat-Zinn put his message across in his books, I did relate to what he was trying to portray.
We only struggle or suffer if we try to change what is, but we can change the way we perceive a situation, actions or comments other people make.
It is our resistance to a situation or our egos need to control, that brings about frustration or even suffering.
Whether we like a situation, comment or action, if we accept what is life becomes much easier.
I breath, listen and try to be present in every moment. It takes constant practice, but it is worth the peace of mind that is gained.
We only struggle or suffer if we try to change what is, but we can change the way we perceive a situation, actions or comments other people make.
It is our resistance to a situation or our egos need to control, that brings about frustration or even suffering.
Whether we like a situation, comment or action, if we accept what is life becomes much easier.
I breath, listen and try to be present in every moment. It takes constant practice, but it is worth the peace of mind that is gained.
Before you speak let your words pass through these 3 gates - Is it true? Is it necessary? Is it kind? - Unknown
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gerronwithit
- Posts: 24
- Practice Mindfulness Since: 17 Jul 1933
Thanks, Pied.
I still struggle, though. Other authors say acceptance is accepting what is and them we can work to change it, whether it is taking a pill for a headache or fighting a world injustice.
So that would involve judgment - 'My head hurts, I want this headache gone,' or 'That political situation is awful, people are suffering. I will campaign against it'.
So I still have problems understanding non-judgment.
Kabat-Zinn says that being non-judgmental is just noticing the judging that we are doing. But he also says that we should 'suspend judgment'. The latter involves dismissing a thought so it is not just 'noticing' the judging we're doing.
And what if we are a parent? We judge our child's behaviour, so are we not being mindfulness?
Of all the attitudes needed to cultivare mindfulness, I find non-judgment and non-striving the most difficult to get my head around.
I still struggle, though. Other authors say acceptance is accepting what is and them we can work to change it, whether it is taking a pill for a headache or fighting a world injustice.
So that would involve judgment - 'My head hurts, I want this headache gone,' or 'That political situation is awful, people are suffering. I will campaign against it'.
So I still have problems understanding non-judgment.
Kabat-Zinn says that being non-judgmental is just noticing the judging that we are doing. But he also says that we should 'suspend judgment'. The latter involves dismissing a thought so it is not just 'noticing' the judging we're doing.
And what if we are a parent? We judge our child's behaviour, so are we not being mindfulness?
Of all the attitudes needed to cultivare mindfulness, I find non-judgment and non-striving the most difficult to get my head around.
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piedwagtail91
- Posts: 613
- Practice Mindfulness Since: 0- 3-2011
- Location: Lancashire witch country
It can be difficult.
I understand what you mean, especially with JKZ .
I guess where kids are concerned we can observe their behaviour and suggest changes if it looks dangerous.
That's a more considered judgement, coming from a love of our kids.
You're aware of making that judgement based on facts.
Maybe an easier judgement example is the weather.
If your garden is fading fast and the plants wilting , then when you get up in a morning and see it pouring down with rain then you'd probably automatically ' judge' the rain to be good, as it waters your garden.
So the 'good' can set your mood.
If you get up having planned a day in the garden and it rains then you probably automatically 'judge' it a miserable day, as you can't then go in the garden.
So again it can set the mood.
Both judgements, but maybe not considered judgements, though it's the same rain, same weather.
Letting go of judgement would see the rain
simply as rain, (the rain just does what it does, it has no intention to be good or bad, happy or miserable).
With no thought attached it brings no emotion.
Letting go of this type of judgement brings equanimity, things just 'are', and usually you can remain peaceful.
I see 'judgement' or 'awareness of judging' a situation based on facts and where safety is concerned (kids )as different from the background chatter type of judgement, the type that judges weather, clothing, colours etc .that comes automatically.
I understand what you mean, especially with JKZ .
I guess where kids are concerned we can observe their behaviour and suggest changes if it looks dangerous.
That's a more considered judgement, coming from a love of our kids.
You're aware of making that judgement based on facts.
Maybe an easier judgement example is the weather.
If your garden is fading fast and the plants wilting , then when you get up in a morning and see it pouring down with rain then you'd probably automatically ' judge' the rain to be good, as it waters your garden.
So the 'good' can set your mood.
If you get up having planned a day in the garden and it rains then you probably automatically 'judge' it a miserable day, as you can't then go in the garden.
So again it can set the mood.
Both judgements, but maybe not considered judgements, though it's the same rain, same weather.
Letting go of judgement would see the rain
simply as rain, (the rain just does what it does, it has no intention to be good or bad, happy or miserable).
With no thought attached it brings no emotion.
Letting go of this type of judgement brings equanimity, things just 'are', and usually you can remain peaceful.
I see 'judgement' or 'awareness of judging' a situation based on facts and where safety is concerned (kids )as different from the background chatter type of judgement, the type that judges weather, clothing, colours etc .that comes automatically.
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gerronwithit
- Posts: 24
- Practice Mindfulness Since: 17 Jul 1933
Right! So the non-judgement for our mindfulness purposes =
1. Being aware of the mind's AUTOMATIC judgements
2. Acknowledging those as just thoughts/judgements and NOT the reality or truth
3. Deciding on wise action (including action to change) or non-action as appropriate, from our viewpoint of mindful awareness?
If so, this is a Eureka! for me, so thanks!
As for the OP I would be keen to discover which book this passage from JKZ is in. In Full Catastrophe he specifically mentions discomfort in meditation postures and bringing awareness to it and, if needed, shifting posture accordingly, if this helps any.
1. Being aware of the mind's AUTOMATIC judgements
2. Acknowledging those as just thoughts/judgements and NOT the reality or truth
3. Deciding on wise action (including action to change) or non-action as appropriate, from our viewpoint of mindful awareness?
If so, this is a Eureka! for me, so thanks!
As for the OP I would be keen to discover which book this passage from JKZ is in. In Full Catastrophe he specifically mentions discomfort in meditation postures and bringing awareness to it and, if needed, shifting posture accordingly, if this helps any.
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