Slacker looking for a way to save time meditating

[Bert]

Ok, thank you for helping this concept to settle in. It hasnt settled in enough, though, since I am dying to ask one more question about it: I recently kept track that on average, my mind wanders about every 10-20 seconds, and this has not changed one bit since I started. So from what you are saying, it is possible that this frequency of thoughts will remain the same. I just need to accept it and continue to just observe and not judge?

[JonW]

'I recently kept track that on average, my mind wanders about every 10-20 seconds, and this has not changed one bit since I started.'

I'd definitely advise that you stop keeping track of how often your mind is wandering. Just bring your attention to the fact that your mind has wandered. Gently notice that and lead your attention back to the sensations of breathing. That's mindfulness. Being aware of your present moment experience.

'So from what you are saying, it is possible that this frequency of thoughts will remain the same. I just need to accept it and continue to just observe and not judge?'

Exactly that, yes. We are not in the results business here. If we start comparing this meditation with that meditation, we become attached to some idea of progress, to an idea of getting better at this, to the idea of mastering something.
Just breathe and let be.
Cheers,
Jon

[Bert]

The last 20 minutes I did just that and feel a huge weight lifted off my chest.Thanks Jon.

[Bert]

I am sorry to look a gift horse in the mouth with another question, if you wouldn' t mind. Many times, an image of a random image or a random memory will pop into my head when I meditate. For example, I will automatically see in my minds eye a fair that I attended, or picture myself sitting in class. Nonemotional stuff. Up to this point, I have not let fo of stuff like this, since it seems neutral and no emotions are attached to it. When I meditate, should I let these images and memories go as well? I tend to only let go of the conceptual things that pop into my head, like "I wish I wouldnt have done that" or thoughts of the future such as " I cant wait to go to the move this weekend, or I am dreading attending that party next week."

[JonW]

No problem.
In formal meditation, notice the thought (whether it's a harsh judgment or a nonemotional memory) and come back to the breath, or whatever anchor you are using.
Outside of formal meditation, we are able to discriminate between thoughts we need to act on (such as 'I must remember to send a birthday card to my brother' or 'My tooth is hurting - I need to make an appointment with my dentist'), harmless nostalgic memories (perhaps hearing a song and remembering where we were when we first heard it) and negative spirals of thought.
All are thoughts and we learn to see them purely as thoughts. Some we act on, some we enjoy while they last, some we observe as they arise and fall away.
Practical thoughts generally don't cause us problems. It's the third category, the negative spirals, that tend to be the stickiest. But we aren't trying to get rid of those thoughts. We are learning to allow them to be by relating to them differently than what we might be used to.
But, in formal meditation, we're not there to daydream. Notice the mind wandering and come back to the anchor (breath, sound, whatever).
Essentially we are learning to remain present with all aspects of our experience, that which we judge to be unpleasant as well as that which we judge to be pleasant. Over time we open up a new freedom and choice in our lives.
But this does take time and it does require patience.
Mindfulness keeps its own hours. It will not be rushed.
Cheers,
Jon

[Bert]

Thank you for helping me to experience what I would call a paradigm shift. So when you are "off the cushion" and experience a worrisome, nonproductive thought, do you let it go in the same manner as you do when "on the cushion?"

[JonW]

Pleasure, Bert.
It's what we are here for.

'So when you are "off the cushion" and experience a worrisome, nonproductive thought, do you let it go in the same manner as you do when "on the cushion?'

Absolutely, yes. I helps me to think of it this way: the sitting is the practice, the rest of the day is the meditation.
Another way of thinking about it is this - When we are waiting for a bus we don't get on the first bus that comes along regardless of where it is going. By the same token, we don't have to follow every thought that comes along. Just as you notice that no. 9 that's going to the other end of town from where you are heading, without clambering aboard, you can choose not to follow a negative, judgmental thought. Just observe it and let it go. Then, when a useful thought arises, act on that. If you like, the useful thought is the bus you want/need to be on. At least until it's time to get off.
See if that works for you and let us know.
All best wishes,
Jon

[Bert]

Up to this point, I have been thinking that having thoughts on neutral or pleasant subjects is conducive to unhappiness. This is due to a study that Dan Gilbert conducted and wrote an article on called, "A Wandering Mind is an Unhappy Mind." An excerpt:

"Although people’s minds were more likely to wander to pleasant topics
(42.5% of samples) than to unpleasant topics
(26.5% of samples) or neutral topics (31% of samples),
people were no happier when thinking about
pleasant topics than about their current activity and were considerably unhappier
when thinking about neutral topics or unpleasant topics than about their current activity."

It seems that from what you just said, that you might disagree with the study's finding that thinking of neutral or pleasant topics leads to unhappiness? If so, I hope you are right and the study is wrong, as letting go of neutral and pleasant trains of thought is hard enough on the cushion, much less OFF the cushion. The study's findings seem counter-intuitive.

[Peter]

I've read the whole study of Dan Gilbert.

I'm afraid you keep making the same mistake, Bert.

Even if the conclusion of this study is true, that a wondering mind makes one unhappy, unless it is thinking about pleasant things, that changes nothing. You can want to stop the mind wondering all you want, but your efforts will be futile. As the report said, it is an evolutionary advantage, and is just built into us, whether we want it or not.

I also like to point out that this study wasn't done with mindfulness practitioners. I think that when one relates differently to their thoughts, the study results would be quite differently.

Peter

[Bert]

That is a good point., thank you. And thanks to Jon as well for clearing things up for me. If the study were performed on those who practiced meditation, I am sure Dan Gilbert would find that there was not decreased happiness in those who think about neutral topics. By the way, I think I will print and post up your Mark Williams quote. After reading the book The Untethered Soul, I missed the point and have been thinking that my mind should be quiet most of the time, but Williams's quote makes more intuitive sense.