Is mindfulness medition focus or ain't it???

[rexall]

Sat 13 Sep 2014, 6:56 pm

Hi All,

In light of a recent thread here about how to regard/deal with thoughts during meditation, I had another question which might be of interest.

Recently, I read somewhere that meditation can broadly fit into two types:
1. Focused (such as on a sound or a mantra or a candle flame or "point" or other object) and 2. Mindfulness.

However, it seems to me that the attention is often focused during mindfulness meditation, such as on the breath. Although, it is pretty clear what the article meant by focused meditation, I wish the author had expanded on how mindfulness is similar or different.

Do y'all agree that meditation can be separated into these two broad categories? Assuming that the comparison is valid, would anyone care to expand on the distinctions?

Thanks!

Rex
Khon Kaen, Thailnad
http://www.MindBodyThailand.com
http://www.REBTinfo.com

[piedwagtail91]

i've just posed a similar question to the bloke that did my teacher training.
i asked if pranayama where i'm mindful of my breath but also controlling and manipulating it is mindfulness or just mindful.
i suppose i've seen mindfulness as awareness of my breath, or anything else for that matter, as something that happens naturally, something that's already there.

sorry i've no answers, just more questions!
i do feel i'm splitting hairs though.

[Heart&soul]

I've no answer either but have also been confused about this, hope someone can help explain the difference. Thanks for posting the question.

[Matt Y]

Unfortunately I don't believe there are clear answers to these questions. Focus, thankfully, is a pretty clear term. Mindfulness is not. Definitions abound. The term itself comes to us via Thomas Rhys-David, and was his 1881 translation of the Pali term 'sati', literally 'memory'.

Here's an article that may shed some light on the question, keeping in mind, that this is just one opinion: http://melbournemeditationcentre.com.au ... editation/

Meditation is often categorised according to those broad definitions. This comes from the Buddhist traditions: samatha (tranquility) and vipassana (insight).

You're right Rex, in noting that they are not mutually exclusive practices. Even if your intention is to focus exclusively on one thing, you'll invariably notice other stuff (thoughts, sensations, passing traffic etc.). Conversely, even if your aim is to be mindful in a much broader sense, at times you will naturally become quite well focused on one thing (and many instructions, somewhat confusingly, recommend that you keep returning your attention to one focal point, often the breath).

So the distinction I think, is a fairly loose one, and may apply more to your intention, than to what actually happens.

Does that make sense?

Matt.

[rexall]

Good Morning, Matt, all.

Thanks for all these resopnses!

There must be some reason people make these distinctions. I wish I knew more about TM which I only flirted with in my shallow and callow youth, and got it from a black market TM teacher at that! Hehehehe . . . But I didn't stick with it long enough to know to be able to share here how one is supposed to deal with thoughts, emotions and sensations while one is "saying" his mantra. In any event, TM is mentioned as one of the examples of "focused" meditation. Has anyone here done both TM and mindfulness? Is there a good way to elucidate the differences and overlaps?

Sorry, I hope this does not seem overly-intellectual. But making comparisons is one of the things that helps me learn. There was an extended discussion on another forum, and not always so polite, about the differences between zazen, vipasana, and mindulness. There was quite a difference of opinion between those of believed them to be the same, those who believed them to be almost the same, and those felt they were not the same at all!

Aloha,

Rex
Khon Kaen, Thailand
http://www.MindBodyThailand.com
http://REBTinfo.com

[rexall]

i've just posed a similar question to the bloke that did my teacher training.
i asked if pranayama where i'm mindful of my breath but also controlling and manipulating it is mindfulness or just mindful.
i suppose i've seen mindfulness as awareness of my breath, or anything else for that matter, as something that happens naturally, something that's already there.

sorry i've no answers, just more questions!
i do feel i'm splitting hairs though.

Hi Piedwagtail, all,

I have not done much formal pranayama or breath work except via the five minutes some yoga teachers give to it at the beginning of a class. I know there is a lot more to it. However, when I do mindfulness meditation on the breath, particularly when my focus is on the lower back & sides of my rib cage (rather than the abdomen), it is difficult to "just observe." As soon as I start observing, I want to get involved in the process of breathing, which makes the whole issue of "allowing" and "doing" confusing. I don't know if that makes sense, and it is a bit of a diversion from this thread, but your comments reminded me that it is one of my issues.

Thanks.

Aloha,

Rex
Khon Kaen, Thailand
http://www.MindBodyThailand.com
http://REBTinfo.com

[piedwagtail91]

i'm sort of coming to my own definition of things.
i'm seeing mindful and mindfulness as generic terms, if they belong to anyone then maybe thats buddhists, which would explain why a few buddhists i have met seem a bit miffed.
i think when it comes to therapy then mindful and mindfulness are used as abbreviations for mbct and its derivatives and mbsr and maybe have a slightly different meaning.
which explains one very miffed buddhist saying mindfulness was ripped off from them
anyone can be mindful and practice mindfulness without it having to be mbct or mbsr, though some teachers i've met would disagree.
so still clear as mud!

[JonW]

"which explains one very miffed buddhist saying mindfulness was ripped off from them."
Sounds like that Buddhist has got major attachment issues.

[piedwagtail91]

[Matt Y]

There must be some reason people make these distinctions.

Yes, as there is a difference between a laser beam and a lamp, there is a difference between focus and awareness / mindfulness. But just as the former are both forms of light, the latter are both forms of attention. They have somewhat different purposes and characteristics.

Perhaps though, one of the reasons people make these distinctions is because we humans love to categorise things. If we can put them into a box, we feel we understand them. Everything has its place, and we feel we know what we are doing. When concepts are confusing, contradictory, paradoxical; we seem not to like it so much. Life is meant to be orderly, damn it!

I wish I knew more about TM which I only flirted with in my shallow and callow youth, and got it from a black market TM teacher at that! Hehehehe . . . But I didn't stick with it long enough to know to be able to share here how one is supposed to deal with thoughts, emotions and sensations while one is "saying" his mantra. In any event, TM is mentioned as one of the examples of "focused" meditation. Has anyone here done both TM and mindfulness? Is there a good way to elucidate the differences and overlaps?

I never actually did an official TM course. They always seemed a bit over-priced to me. However, I have spoken with many TM folks, and taught many of them mindfulness too. Interestingly, even with such a standardised practice, no two people do it exactly the same. It would seem that TM definitely falls into an example of 'focused' meditation, but some TM teachers stress that focus is not important in the technique at all! Whilst you are directed to repeat your mantra, it doesn't matter if it comes and goes. You just let your thoughts and emotions swim around and do their thing. Not everyone who learns TM practices this way though.

The fact is, even the simplest instructions will be interpreted and enacted in very different ways by different people. The instruction to bring your attention gently back to the breath when you notice you are thinking may seem quite clear and straightforward; but every meditator will do this in their own unique manner. Some will add in some form of self-chastisement, some will only bring their attention back to the breath when they feel like it, some will set up camp like a sniper, ready to blast any thought into oblivion, some will welcome each thought like a long lost friend.

This might explain your observation that:

There was quite a difference of opinion between those of believed them to be the same, those who believed them to be almost the same, and those felt they were not the same at all!

As Mick so eloquently said: "clear as mud!"