mindfulness scientific evidence

[van veen]

Good morning, I am new to this forum and this is my first post.
I am Italian and excuse me for my English.
I would like to discuss with you the following statement about mindfulness I've found on Wikipedia:

Of more than 3,000 scientific studies that were found in a comprehensive search of 17 relevant databases, only about 4% had randomised controlled trials (RCTs), which are designed to exclude the placebo effect.[11] Reviews of these RCTs consistently find that meditation without a focus on developing "mental silence", an aspect often excluded from techniques used in Western society, does not give better results than simply relaxing, listening to music or taking a short nap. While those who practiced mental silence showed clinically and statistically significant improvements in work related stress, depressed feelings, asthma-control, and quality of life as compared to commonly used stress management programs


(Could someone explain me what is the difference between mindfulness and mental silence?)
Quite discouraging! I am practicing mindfulness from 3 months, everyday, because of heavy anxiety and stress related issues. My personal experience so far is neither positive or negative, neutral I would say.
The old patterns are still adamantine and I feel very far from not being caught up from same old painful narratives.
I've turned toward mindfulness because I've read Davidson and Siegel scientific conclusions but since I've read that Wikipedia statement that I've here pasted I feel if all this mindfulness thing isn't just a bit delusion.
What do you think?
Thank you for your answers

[JonW]

Hi Van Veen.
Welcome to the forum.
I'm greatly surprised by the research you mention. All the research I have encountered seems to point conclusively to the fact that mindfulness practice fosters huge benefits including stress reduction, reduced rumination, reduced severity of depression, sharpened focus, increased cognitive flexibility, improvements in relationships, and so on. All amounting to a better quality of life.
More significantly, perhaps, I have spoken to many people who feel their lives have been changed almost beyond recognition through mindfulness practice. I'm sure many members of this forum would say the same. Delusional it is assuredly not.
The aim of mindfulness practice is not the emptying of the mind. According to Jon Kabat-Zinn, mindfulness simply means, "means paying attention in a particular way; on purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally.”
It is not about striving for any particular goal, least of all the emptying of the mind. It is the gentle effort to be continuously present with experience.
In terms of further reading I would highly recommend any of the Jon Kabat-Zinn books, especially Coming To Our Senses (my personal favourite).
I wish you all the best with your practice.
Cheers,
Jon, Hove

[piedwagtail91]

i can't really add anything to what jon says, so just posted to agree.
i don't think mental silence is possible, well not for me, my mind was pretty much like a restless monkey in our body scan yesterday.
it made it fun though, a half smile every time you catch the mind wandering.( that meant an almost permanent smile for me!)
i've never experienced mental silence even when i feel i've been in a reasonably 'still and quiet and focussed' meditation.
i could never 'do' relaxation for that reason.
that was the first thing i noticed on my course, that i was allowed to have all these thoughts in my head and not need to get mad or frustrated with them.
as jon says mindfulness has changed a lot of people.
i don't recognise the person i was three years ago, i've very little in common with the person i was then, all down to mindfulness.

[JonW]

Of course, there are Zen masters and the like who claim to have achieved states of prolonged mental stillness. Maybe so. But that state is not the aim of mindfulness.
By simply noticing thoughts (and feelings), it's as though we rob them of their power to make us suffer.
When a particularly troublesome thought arises, I remind myself of the Jon Kabat-Zinn line: "thoughts are mere secretions of the mind." Or I imagine the thought as a soap bubble or a passing cloud.
The thought only has power over us if we grant it that power. Mindfulness teaches us that we do have that choice. That's incredibly empowering.

[van veen]

Thank you for your answers and thank to others who will like to give their contribution to my question.
I've read quite a lot of things hat state that mindfulness brings good to people who practice it.
Nonetheless I think that if Wikipedia accepted to publish that statement and if, so far, nobody brought other information or scientific data that can refute that statement maybe there is something true about the placebo effect of mindfulness.
It is not my I intention to be polemic I just would like if someone could explain with some robust scientific data the effectiveness of meditation.
Thanks a lot

[JonW]

Here are some hopefully useful links to recent mindfulness studies:
http://marc.ucla.edu/workfiles/pdfs/MAR ... ummary.pdf
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 144007.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 112745.htm
https://www.umassmed.edu/Content.aspx?id=42426
http://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/science-mindfulness
http://meditation-research.org.uk
All best,
Jon, Hove

[van veen]

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cro ... a-placebo/

I've read this article linked in this interesting discussion on reddit.
http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/co ... backed_by/

I would love if a scientist or a physician coup refute the article and, above all, the method with which scientific studies are conducted.

[piedwagtail91]

i think it should be remembered that not everything on wikipedia or the internet is , lets say, accurate.

[JonW]

I'd like to add that the Jon Kabat-Zinn/Mark Williams/Danny Penman model of mindfulness seems to work very well for most of us.
Over-thinking this simply leads to more striving, more self-judgment, even less mindfulness. It's self-defeating.
This is not an argument.
Practice is key.
Jon

[Steve]

I've not looked at any of the scientific reports mentioned above but having just read The Science Delusion (by Rupert Sheldrake), I suggest that what is meant by the 'Placebo Effect' be considered (in any field). This coudl just mean that we are observing an effect (as real as any other observed effect) for which we have no current widely accepted scientific explanation. This could just simply mean that our understanding is lacking rather than calling into doubt the observed effect (and I make these comments as someone who has a science degree, has a great respect for science (and who's living depends on scientific advances) but remains open-minded (and intrigued) by things we cannot explain.

Going back to the orignal question, the point made on another topic (choiceless awareness) seems appropriate. For me, peace of mind does not mean the silence of no thoughts but the state of mind when you are at peace with whatever 'noise' of thoughts is going through your mind. The sentence I quoted from the other topic is:

"We realise that the peace we were striving for by trying to control our experience happens when we don't need to control our experience anymore"

ie when we realise we don't need to strive for silence but can be at peace just being with what is.

Steve