Awareness & Thought

[surgeonfish]

Ok, so I'm relatively new to mindfulness. Having read much about the subject and practicing formal and informal mindfulness over the past few weeks, I don't understand how we can be aware whilst being dissociated to our thoughts ('witness'/'observer' role). So, if I close my eyes and begin to be attentive to my breath (an anchor to the present moment), i.e. my awareness is directed at my breath, I "feel" the sensations of my breath. But whenever I do this I automatically visualise/imagine my belly rising and falling. It's impossible for me to be attentive to my breath without 'being in' thought (visualising/imagining is a manifestation of thought). This is where thought (the visualisation/imagination) is intertwined with the awareness (the raw sensations) of the breath. There are countless of other examples I can provide - in mindfulness meditation - where awareness cannot exist without associating to a thought.

In mindfullness, how is it possible to be 'aware' without focussing on a 'thought' that supports the awareness?

Does what I say make sense to anyone?

Any guidance would be really appreciated.

Mike

[Gareth]

I've never really thought about this way, so I will be interested to see what other people have to say about this question.

I am able to just be attentive to the breath wherever I feel it; it has always been this way for me. Is it that you visualise the belly going up and down as it actually is going up and down? I'm unsure as to whether this counts as thinking or not. Can anybody else offer an opinion on this?

[surgeonfish]

Thanks for your reply, Gareth!

Yes, that's right; I do tend to visualise the belly going up and down as it actually is going up and down. I also tend to imagine the inside of my lungs - fresh air going in and toxic air coming out. Visualisation and imagination are manifestations of thought as it's impossible to imagine and visualise without being in thought; just try it for yourself!

I raised this question to Shamash Alidina, author of the book "Mindfulness for dummies", and his response was "...My gut feeling is you're trying too hard to be mindful in a perfect kind of way. Simply be aware of your breathing and if thoughts or images come up, be aware of that too. That's perfectly fine. Keep going and enjoy as best you can."

What do others think of Shamash's view? Has anybody experienced the same thing I'm experiencing?

C'mon guys - I can't be the only one!

Mike

[JonW]

Hi Mike.
Excellent question.
It would be useful to have more information about your practice and whether, for example, you are following the 8-week course.
You highlight one of the more subtle areas of mindfulness learning/practice. From personal experience I would say that the question is answered by committed practice. In other words, I agree with Shamash. There's a big difference between gently noticing how you are breathing and becoming self-conscious about it, or over-thinking it. It's more about being than thinking. That understanding comes with practice, and patience, and self-compassion.
Hope this makes some kind of sense.
I'd be interested to hear what Mr. Biosattva of this parish thinks about this subject…
All best,
Jon, Hove

[surgeonfish]

Thanks, Jon; I think your response has now given me more questions than answers!

I just started practice a several weeks ago and most of my knowledge about the subject has come from youtube, the Internet and books (Mindfulness for Dummies).

Are you able to explain your experience when you meditate mindfully? What do you experience when you focus on your breathing? I really liked what you said i.e. that "...There's a big difference between gently noticing how you are breathing and becoming self-conscious about it, or over-thinking it" - but what does that mean in practice? Are you able to explain what 'noticing' versus 'becoming self-conscious' means to you in terms of practical experience and how this is achieved?

Thanks

Mike

[JonW]

Hi Mike.
Essentially the difference is experiential, not easy to describe. The best way I can put it is that there's a fundamental difference between noticing that I am breathing and thinking about the fact that I am breathing (which might also involve questioning whether I'm breathing correctly etc.) Similar to the difference between simply watching a sunset and watching a sunset whilst thinking, "I remember that sunset I watched with my first girlfriend, I wonder why we broke up, I wonder what she's doing now, she made lovely cakes, I quite fancy a cake now."
Another example would be mindful eating. If I'm eating an orange mindfully, I'm focussed on the taste of the orange. I'm not observing myself eating an orange.
Mindfulness requires a solid grounding and my advice to anybody would be to follow an eight-week course. Ideally in a class situation with a qualified and recommended teacher. If that's not possible, then with the help of a book that teaches the 8-week course. A lot of people on this forum, myself included, found Mark Williams & Danny Penman's Mindfulness: Finding Peace In A Frantic World to be invaluable at the beginning. The paper version (as opposed to Kindle) is the one to get as it comes with a CD of excellent guided meditations.
All best,
Jon, Hove

[piedwagtail91]

when i focus my awareness on my breath, although i know my awareness is at my belly or nostrils i'm not thinking about them but i'm focussed on the sensations caused by the movement of the breath in the body in that place, the movement of the air/ breath in the nostrils or the stretching sensation then the relax, in the belly.
i suppose i tend to lose all 'labels' and just go with sensations, wherever and whatever they are,

[JonW]

"...although i know my awareness is at my belly or nostrils i'm not thinking about them but i'm focussed on the sensations caused by the movement of the breath in the body in that place, the movement of the air/ breath in the nostrils or the stretching sensation then the relax, in the belly."
Yes. This.
Spot on, squire.

[surgeonfish]

This is very useful; thanks!

Do you guys think an online mindful course is useful?

There's a 4 week online course provided by the Mental Health Foundation, details can be found here: http://www.bemindfulonline.com/

Thanks a lot to you both for your help; its been really beneficial

Mike

[JonW]

Pleasure Mike.
I'd say that an online course is never going to be as grounding as being taught by a "live" teacher in a group situation but, that said, well worth checking out. If there's any feedback about specific teachers and courses, that would be well worth looking into.
Here on the sunny south coast there's no shortage of good mindfulness courses and teachers but I appreciate not all places are similarly blessed.
Let us know how you get on.
Cheers,
Jon, Hove