The difference between mindfulness and flow

[Metaphysical Me]

When I first started I went the other way and tried to force way too much attention. Different end of the spectrum, perhaps.

Yeah me too. Very, very frustrating. It's a tricky beast, mindfulness

[Metaphysical Me]

You're more than welcome to your theories. But after finishing work on an eight week course and eight weeks of teacher training with very experienced teachers I can assure you that we spent a considerable time practicing mindfulness by closing our eyes and mediating on sound, amongst other things.
Maybe we were wrong?

No, now you're saying you're "meditating on sound". That is a huge difference. Before you were saying "just close your eyes and listen".

Mick, I did formal one-on-one meditation tuition 15 years ago. I've done biology, cognitive science and psychology courses at uni. I know what I'm talking about too.

[Metaphysical Me]

If mindfulness was as easy as people closing their eyes and listening to a piece of music, I don't think there would be so many books about it, centuries of thought and practise of it - and it wouldn't need a forum about it.

[piedwagtail91]

When I close my eyes and listen, I'm meditating, mindfuly.
Over thinking and analyzing to this length is not what mindfulness is about.
It's pointless word play.

[Metaphysical Me]

When I close my eyes and listen, I'm meditating, mindfuly.
Over thinking and analyzing to this length is not what mindfulness is about.
It's pointless word play.

No, it's absolutely not. By not being precise, you are misleading people who come here as new practitioners by telling them stuff that's not true because it's so over-simplified it's no longer meaningful.

And in discussions with more experienced practitioners it's frustrating, because comments like that just get discussions turning around in foggy circles.

[Metaphysical Me]

When I close my eyes and listen, I'm meditating, mindfuly.

This, then, is what you should be telling new practitioners. If you've done courses on this, then it's all the more your responsibility to pass this stuff on well and not muddled.

[Cheesus]

I can see where the distinction is being drawn and why confusion has arisen. It's the difference between being immersed in music and knowing you're immersed in music. However, I'm still uncertain that this is ever really a problem for beginners.

[Metaphysical Me]

I can see where the distinction is being drawn and why confusion has arisen. It's the difference between being immersed in music and knowing you're immersed in music. However, I'm still uncertain that this is ever really a problem for beginners.

Well, yeah, but surely it's not very helpful to say to a beginning practitioner (who comes to the forum with questions) something like "just immerse yourself in music"?

Anyway, I do think it's a valid and important distinction in and of itself - and beyond that, it's frustrating (for me) to post a question and then have wishy-washy feel-good answers like "oh just immerse yourself in music" as a reply.

For example, in my thread about how to be mindful in a REALLY challenging dog-walking situation, it's not helpful for me to "close my eyes" (I can't) or to "just listen to sounds".

If I were to "just listen to sounds" (which would be the attempt of reaching a flow state) then these sounds would have to be something relatively pleasant - i.e. not traffic or passers-by bickering re dog poo.

So, the flow state is not really an option there.

Also, the walks are so challenging, that I'm not sure I'm able to "meditate" on the sounds either. I have to look out for the dog, the traffic, other people, I'm tired on the morning dog-walk, etc etc.

So, my question was: how to you bring mindfulness to a challenging situation.

I got some great replies, but also some that were worded in a relatively superficial sounding way. That (and other threads) is what made me think of the distinction between flow and mindfulness and whether that's being muddled around here.

Oh - and I'm still working on the dog-walking issue... Took the dog for his evening walk and tried the "listening for sounds" thing. Noticed that I and the dog actually produce quite a lot of sounds just doing our walk! Which made me hear the traffic less. So, there you go "listening to sounds" wasn't even bad advice...

Tho, I'm still quite a way off from having "mindful" dog walks... I will have to continue working on that one!

[Metaphysical Me]

Actually, there are 2 more things I should say for clarity.

Mindfulness practice, when it's really working well, moves in and out of mindfulness and flow states. (This maybe has to do with what you said, Cheesus, about not wanting "too much" attention to play a role).

So, you sort of get this ebb and flow of being aware / mindful and then moving into the flow state and losing yourself in what you're observing and then having the consciousness come to the forefront again and then the sensations being centre stage again...

So, if flow is part of your mindfulness practice, then brilliant

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What actually really annoyed me in the other threads regarding this issue isn't even that people were posting overly simplistic suggestions like "just listen to sounds". That would be okay.

However, what was going on was that these people were criticising and belittling the posts of other forum users, who were giving more nuanced and thoughtful answers (and more useful answers!).

These people were told to "stop being so analytical", "stop thinking so much", "this has nothing to do with mindfulness".

That is totally unacceptable, IMO.

If people want to be more superficial about it, fine.

But do NOT criticise people being more perceptive and insightful and do NOT tell them to stop posting like that!

If all you want to do is have flow experiences, fine. If you don't like conversing meaningfully about the finer points of mindfulness, fine. But don't tell other people to keep their mouths shut about it.

[Cheesus]

Point taken.

I glanced at the dog walking thread but noticed it had a number of good responses so didn't reply. I'm not sure if someone already mentioned this, but I find that connecting with the soles of my feet is a really good way to meditate while being active. There is a rhythmic element which makes it easier to follow, and I find that the connection to the floor grounds me firmly in the present moment. If you use that as your anchor it might then prepare you for exploring other experiences such as smells, sensations (I like the cold air on my face), sounds, emotions etc., with something to fall back on when you've finished exploring/get distracted. This is very much how I meditate in sitting practice with the feet substituted for by the breath.

I also really liked someone's suggestion of following the dog. If I could be any animal it would be a well cared for dog