The difference between mindfulness and flow

[Cheesus]

Flow occurs when a person is aware of his or her actions but is not being aware of his or her awareness.

Mindfulness is viewed not as the achievement of any particular state, but as intentional awareness of what is, plus being aware of awareness.

A very important difference!!

Sounds like what happens to me when I ski. It's not something I have knowingly come across on this board, however. Maybe I interpret people's meanings differently to you.

[Cheesus]

From what people here are posting (things like "just shut your eyes and listen to sounds") they are describing states of flow.

As I posted above, states of flow are part of mindfulness but they do not equal mindfulness!

Closing your eyes and listening to sounds is mindfulness.

I would have to agree with pied. Sounds like mindfulness to me (excuse the pun).

EDIT: Rereading the definitions, it sounds like either/or, depending on how you're doing it. I don't think this distinction needs to be made as when people do it with intention, as they would in sitting practice, they are purposeful and thus are aware of awareness.

[piedwagtail91]

All this analytical stuff isn't really mindfulness. mindfulness needs a beginners mind. taking things apart and analysing or over thinking and labelling isn't really what it's about .

[Metaphysical Me]

All this analytical stuff isn't really mindfulness. mindfulness needs a beginners mind. taking things apart and analysing or over thinking and labelling isn't really what it's about .

Yep, analysing mindfulness is not mindfulness itself. But it's important to know whether what you are practising *is* a state of mindfulness or not.

[Metaphysical Me]

Sounds like what happens to me when I ski.

Yep, skiing would be a perfect example of something where you can get flow states happening. (If you like those states, I really recommend checking out the literature on flow, cos it helps you get "everyday flow states" happening - just like you can practise "everyday mindfulness".)

There have been a LOT of comments here in the forum - for example in a thread about reading and focus and mindfulness - that suggest that if you "lose yourself in the book" that is mindfulness. But nope, that is FLOW.

If, however, you're getting flow states while reading and ADD awareness of your awareness to it, THEN you've got mindfulness.

This has been happening in other threads too - ones where I've posed a question too.

People are writing "Oh, just get [such and such a flow state] happening" and voila that's all there is to mindfulness".

But that's simply not true.

It's been happening so much, that I really think the distinction BETWEEN the flow and the mindfulness states needs to be made.

While I'm certainly no fan of taking mindfulness overly seriously, I am also NOT a fan of completely muddling up the basic concepts.

[Metaphysical Me]

From what people here are posting (things like "just shut your eyes and listen to sounds") they are describing states of flow.

As I posted above, states of flow are part of mindfulness but they do not equal mindfulness!

Closing your eyes and listening to sounds is mindfulness.

I would have to agree with pied. Sounds like mindfulness to me (excuse the pun).

EDIT: Rereading the definitions, it sounds like either/or, depending on how you're doing it. I don't think this distinction needs to be made as when people do it with intention, as they would in sitting practice, they are purposeful and thus are aware of awareness.

Nope : JUST closing your eyes and listening to sounds is NOT mindfulness.

[Metaphysical Me]

EDIT: Rereading the definitions, it sounds like either/or, depending on how you're doing it. I don't think this distinction needs to be made as when people do it with intention, as they would in sitting practice, they are purposeful and thus are aware of awareness.

This is possibly a valid point.

But the question is whether people are doing what you assume - i.e. automatically bringing the awareness of awareness along...

From comments like "losing yourself in a book" it is obvious to me that this is certainly not *always* the case. The term "lose yourself" is a certain sign that a flow state is going on.

Plus, the fact that people keep emphasising that "that is all you need to do" and "just do such and such" are dead giveaways to me that it's ONLY flow they are describing. Mindfulness has that extra component. So the words "just" or "that's all" do give me the impression that people *are* barking up the wrong tree there.

If you over-simplify mindfulness, you get a flow state.

Which is fine. Flow states are great.

They're just not mindfulness states, that's all.

[Cheesus]

Hmmm. Honestly I've never thought about this before, or seen mindfulness interpreted that way. When I first started I went the other way and tried to force way too much attention. Different end of the spectrum, perhaps.

[Metaphysical Me]

Mindfulness is a meta-state. It's you stepping outside and above and beyond you're normal state.

A similar example of this is when you get déjà vu happening - you're in the situation, but you're also experiencing the meta-state of the déjà vu sensation *about* the situation.

So, if you're doing mindfulness practice, and you get a flow state happening, plus the meta-state of awareness of awareness (which feels a bit like a déjà vu type feeling) --- then you're talking... then you've got the mindfulness thing going on.

[piedwagtail91]

You're more than welcome to your theories. But after finishing work on an eight week course and eight weeks of teacher training with very experienced teachers I can assure you that we spent a considerable time practicing mindfulness by closing our eyes and mediating on sound, amongst other things.
Maybe we were wrong?