Forum Guidelines

[BioSattva]

Lol. Is this all necessary?

[Gareth]

Phew.

I have become increasingly aware in the last few days of 'debates' of this length going on in various topics. I have just read through one of them (it was hard work). Although I can see nothing inflammatory going on in the thread (I think), this length of post is extremely off-putting and hard to follow. I am extremely concerned that this will deter people from joining the forum or indeed make the forum a less attractive place for current members. In fact we have already received comments from forum members in relation to this specific issue.

This leaves us in a fairly tricky situation because on the one hand, we absolutely do not want to curtail free speech, but on the other we want this place to be primarily for people to discuss their practice of mindfulness in a secular, supportive and non-intimidating environment.

I want this place to be as inclusive as possible, and my instinct is that there is a place on this forum for everyone. But we simply cannot be in a situation where potential new members are looking at threads and being completely put off this place. I think this forum is out of the womb at last, but It is still newborn and fragile. We need to take extreme care and handle these issues mindfully. Fiona, Jon and I are going to discuss this in the days ahead and hopefully come up with some kind of solution. In the meantime, please be patient and remember that any of us can be approached at any time, to discuss what is on your mind.

[OmniPada]

Another community member has given their feedback and suggested that to them posts of more than 5 paragraphs feel too long. I asked for feedback and they gave it, making jokes that 'oh no I've gone over 5 paragraphs' etc feels like you are mocking someone elses input.

Sorry, that wasn't my intent. I'm glad at least that you did see I wrote it in jest, and not to be taken seriously. I was hoping you were still laughing from the previous lines, evidently not.

I apologize.

I and others from the moderation team have mentioned on the board and I have said to you in PMs that the guidelines are still very new. We are working on them and requesting feedback as we go to try and get something in place that works for all of us. It feels like you acknowledge this in your post and yet aren't giving us the time to work on these things and as mentioned about dismissing the feedback others make.

I'm confused. Please help me understand how I'm not giving you time. I don't think anywhere in my post I indicated any frame of time in which things should be done, or that they should have already been done.

I have no expectations on anything you'll do, whether related to time frame or policy. I'm only offering my thoughts on the question you raised. I hope you don't feel pressure from me or what I've written to "do" anything, or to even "you should have already done" anything.

If I expressed anything that seems to indicate otherwise, it's certainly not been my intent. I understand this is new and still in development. Any take-away from my post(s) that is to the contrary is not intentional.

Where religion is concerned, you seem to imply that the royal we aka the moderators, don't understand the religious basis of words, rituals and responses to things like meditation. Personally speaking this is incorrect and I have quite extensive experience of a strict Christian upbringing. It is not something I particularly want to talk about, as is my prerogative, but please don't make assumptions about my understanding or knowledge on this or any other matter.

I don't know if you do or don't understand the religious basis of any words - how can I? I just know Bio likes to make a big deal about them being religious and he piggy-backs on your words where you said enlightenment and awakening aren't part of mindfulness and shouldn't be used on this site.

Although I do focus on them not being religious words, for the sake that this seems to be a non-religious focused site, I'm also making the point that you can't separate "mindfulness" from "enlightenment" because if you're mindful, enlightenment will happen. I hope that didn't get lost in the discussion on religiosity.

Can you help me understand why you've censored their use on this site? Enlightenment is one of the first things that happens to a mindful person. Saying it can't be discussed is highly limiting to the site - "You can talk about mindfulness, but as soon as you make any progress you'll have to discuss it elsewhere." That's the feeling I get from your censorship.

I'm happy if I'm found wrong in this.

I always try and respond mindfully and respectfully to your posts but confess I am starting to feel like anything other than agreeing with you provokes a challenging response. No, we do not agree on several matters but as a moderator, I am trying to balance your views against all the other views people express publicly and privately. I have to hold the confidences of other forum members.

OK.

Finally, as you have pointed out there is little we can do to stop you posting long threads, I would ask you to consider this though as part of helping us develop a thriving community where everyone feels comfortable and able to contribute.

This is separate from your next point. You use the comfort of others here, and then use your comfort below. I'd like to address them separately.

You give the solution to the problem you present here, just below in saying if they find them long or confusing, they don't have to read them. There, you've solved this issue already.

This is not censorship, merely asking that you consider others in the community. Forum members do not have read your posts if they find them overly long or confusing but as a moderator it is part of my role and it is increasingly becoming the largest part of my role.

Can you see how much that sounds like #1?

Here are two opposing rationals, both with different results, I ask you to consider which you'd rather have:

"I don't have time to read all the posts on the forum and keep up with everyone and make sure every post is 'within guidelines'. Soooooo, I'll limit the site, cut down on what people can post, how often, etc. Eventually as more people join the site (because we want this to be a huge community) I'll have to restrict how often people can post so I can keep up with it all."

OR

"I don't have time to read all the posts on the forum and keep up with everyone and make sure every post is 'within guidelines'. Soooooo, I'll promote other active members and give them some authority to deal with issues that come up. Eventually as more people join the site I'll just sit back and help manage the moderators instead of me having to do all the work."

By starting with the end in mind you'll find what you should do today. Can you really see yourself being the "only one" policing every post? If not, go ahead and build in to your "rules" how you can tell when you need more moderators and what you'll do to get them.

My opinion, restricting the site for the sake of a (or several) moderators is a sure-fire way to keep it from growing.

[JonW]

This is getting tiresome.
I would suggest that Bio and Omni continue their discussion via e-mail or private messaging.
Thanks, Jon

[BioSattva]

Well, I've got nothing more to say to Omni it seems.
I just needed to get that all 'out there' so anyone can make use of anything if they wish to - it was for the benefit of the forum, Jon, any enjoyment I was having ultimately came second. I have no interest in discussing anything privately with Omni.
I've been missing the good old days of discussing secular mindfulness practice.
This whole connecting mindfulness with Enlightenment debacle - apparently condoned on this forum as long as it has been is only going to end in tears, in my opinion. I've seen what happens on Zen and other Buddhist forums - constant power struggles - the whole "You're mad and confused and I am Enlightened like the Buddha, and you read too much and you need to stop doing this and that" - as I have been getting on that thread with Omni is just the tip of the iceberg. No moderator has been protecting me from that as far as I am aware. I can take a positive stance on it since I have a deep conviction in my practice, but this place is quickly losing it's glow as far as I am concerned - too much hippy stuff.

A self-declared Messiah has been allowed to run amok in this place - patronising and belittling everyone while posting incredibly long posts which have been stagnating discussion - drawing attention to, and exploiting the weaknesses of an emerging forum while parading around a Buddha-like status - drawing everyone's energy into him like a vampire. This kind of thing isn't even condoned on Buddhism forums, let alone serious science forums.

If you leave this forum open to such behaviour, this place will be filled with 'sexy hippies' preying on vulnerable people who have arrived here through MBSR before you know it. Arguments along the lines of "mindfulness is for Enlightenment, dude", "No, it's not, it's about accessing your psychic powers - cool!", "No, maaaan, it's for learning how to astrally project - I totally fly around the room when I'm sitting", etc., and then you'll have all these depressed people saying "Wicked! Teach me guys!". When that starts happening I'll know it's time to go and find (or found) a proper focused mindfulness forum for people interested in secular mindfulness. I arrived here after having gone through all the power-struggle "I am a cute awakened guy" nonsense elsewhere - I have years of experience trying to negotiate all the 'Internet Zen Masters' and just talk about basic, simple scientific mindfulness practice.

The Science Chat forum requires people to back up any scientific statements with peer-reviewed evidence. Zen Forum International requires teachers, let alone self-declared Enlightened people, to make clear their school and lineage. Those preaching other religions are warned and then thrown off. If you maintain romantic notions of mindfulness within Buddhist organisations or romantic notions about those who claim they are awakened, then I think this forum is as good as done for since any secular, grounded, solid, simple mindfulness practice will be pulled off into mystical worlds. It's no big deal if that's the case; sometimes the forest is full of useless wood and needs to burn down in order to create more fertile soil. I'm all for accepting nature needing to do it's thing. I do not wish to cling to anything - let alone this forum.

The act of actively including those who undermine the scientific basis of mindfulness on a forum, in the interest of inclusivity, will seemingly rot the foundations and lose the value of having a secular-orientated mindfulness forum. The non-secular power of mindfulness has been, and is being, explored on many other very large forums elsewhere on the internet. E-Sangha was absolutely huge before it got cyber-demolished by hackers - all Buddhism schools were present, and there were even sub-forums for Daoism, and other stuff like psychic experience and even shamanism if I recall. The site admin and main moderation team were Tibetan Buddhist and pretty Fascist, however, and there were massive conflicts - with ordained Zen and Theravada teachers leaving - eventually causing other forums to spring up and gather speed until the cyber-attack.

I think you really need to decide on the ultimate 'flavour' of this forum, otherwise it's going to become a hotbed of stress - completely opposite from the ideals of MBSR. Just look what one person with a non-secular projected authority has been doing to this place already. There is a girl here who constantly makes it known that she suffers serious depression, and the self-appointed forum Buddha is encouraging her to consider him like a big cuddly panda. It's hilarious and incredibly tragic at the same time, lol!

Ask yourselves how and why you came to practice mindfulness through MBSR - it was made available to you by scientists in a regulated clinical setting. This wasn't to bypass Christians moaning about Buddhist-related practices being recommended by GPs - it was more about what Jon Kabat-Zinn refers to as "New Age Bullshit". MBSR has been so effective because of the very fact that it avoids all the mystical stuff used in traditional Buddhism, etc.

Anyway, good luck with it all, guys, I'll be over on my blog investing more time there until this place has found it's feet again. Hey, I might even register an 'alt' account on here and pretend to be enlightened and troll everyone - I think I could do a better job than Omni, in any case (that is a joke by the way - I've got better things to do with my time).

Bio.

[OmniPada]

This is getting tiresome.
I would suggest that Bio and Omni continue their discussion via e-mail or private messaging.
Thanks, Jon

Are you asking me to not post anymore tothis thread or just interaction with Bio?

If its just interaction with Bio, he had convinced me to not interact with him already.

[Vixine]

A self-declared Messiah has been allowed to run amok in this place - patronising and belittling everyone while posting incredibly long posts which have been stagnating discussion - drawing attention to, and exploiting the weaknesses of an emerging forum while parading around a Buddha-like status - drawing everyone's energy into him like a vampire.

I couldn't agree more.

I am sorry to fuel this fire at all, I was really trying to ignore it and not get involved.

[rara]

I just needed to get that all 'out there' so anyone can make use of anything if they wish to

Here we are. something that could have been seen ages ago if we'd all just saved energy on talking about this and repeating ourselves. The whole point has been missed completely.

Omni opens thread. Fee moves thread. Thread continues.

Then, some members read it, others give up on it. This is how forums work, right? I don't see why a member or members need to take so much heat when everyone else has the choice to just not read the things. There are plenty of other discussions going on in this forum (99%) that are going just fine. So why are we wasting so much time on an issue that has been blown way out of proportion?

[rara]

PS, Unfortunately no one is ever going to agree on everything. That's the point in debating...and I'm sorry, but it takes two to tango.

If you don't want religion or philosophy involved in this forum, then perhaps science or anything of the kind shouldn't be too? Maybe it should be JUST mindfulness training tips. Maybe that could get a bit stale, but when I receive two separate messages saying that some think the forum should be "secular", what on earth does that mean? Where do we draw the line? I've certainly put Buddhist and Taoist references out there before. There's another open thread talking about religion. There's another one about global awareness.

What exactly is the problem here? Again, as I said, no one HAS to read what other people put. And again, I compare to any other forums, that unless something is said that's straight-up offensive, moderators usually let things be. And if things get too OTT, posts just get deleted, and threads get closed. Like this thread should be.

[rara]

A self-declared Messiah has been allowed to run amok in this place - patronising and belittling everyone while posting incredibly long posts which have been stagnating discussion - drawing attention to, and exploiting the weaknesses of an emerging forum while parading around a Buddha-like status - drawing everyone's energy into him like a vampire. This kind of thing isn't even condoned on Buddhism forums, let alone serious science forums.

Maybe. If that's how you perceive it. So many out there call themselves awakened and all have different views on what that means. What so offensive about self-progression and seeing clearly and wanting to help someone?

I am still yet to see any evidence of anything wrong here. Patronising or humour? Has this "Messiah" not apologised for any misunderstandings and only asked for some reasoning? I seem to recall him not wanting to be looked at as a Buddha or Gandhi.

And no, it may not be condoned on Buddhism or philosophy forums but it's certainly let live. Despite recent events, this is still the most respectful forum I belong to.

Bio, you are very good with words. So good that you offer a strong debate. But also, you are a spin doctor because of it and have great influence here. You talk about a power struggle and everything ending in tears? It's happening now...a decent logical debate is turning sour and until one person gets their way, this bad air is going to be about.

Do we want this to be a witch hunt, or do we want to be accepting and deal with this properly?

Jon has my list already on how this can all be done more tactfully without imposing bans on free speech. It's all i have to say on the matter now and come whatever may.