What are you going to do now?

[FeeHutch]

As moderators, we feel it is sometimes necessary to remind members that this forum, like any other, has parameters that need to be observed and respected.
Everyday Mindfulness is a forum primarily concerned with forming a community around mindfulness in a secular but open- minded and supportive setting.
While we accept that everyone has their own interpretation of what mindfulness means to them, the moderation team have become increasingly uncomfortable with the direction certain threads have taken.
For the majority of this community, the concepts of “awakening” and “enlightenment” are not part of mindfulness practice and, as such, they would be better discussed elsewhere.
Also, we feel that it is important to draw a line between offering helpful advice to other members and that which might be perceived to be actual teaching. It is our decision that posting “How To Meditate” YouTube links oversteps that particular line.
We hope this message is taken in the spirit in which it is intended. It is not our intention to judge others or to censor their views. But there are occasions when we need to make decisions based on what we instinctively feel is right for the majority of this community.
Best wishes, The Moderation Team

[BioSattva]

It's great you are making this clear. I was wondering when a situation like on this thread was going to 'arrive' at this forum.

Everyday Mindfulness is a forum primarily concerned with forming a community around mindfulness in a secular but open- minded and supportive setting.

I wish I could have referred to this earlier in this thread - is there a more prominent place where it could be seen. Is it in the general forum guidelines, for example?

[OmniPada]

The other person who is alive that describes the same experience that I've had is Adyashanti.

Interesting. Have you contacted him yet?

I haven't had a need to, so no. And I don't think at this point it matters to you or I.

Still no certificate to pass around or have filled out by someone else.

Well yes there is - the criteria which certify someone as 'awakened' according to the defining properties of Gautama Buddha's awakening. At the very least one needs to be certified according to those. Any person can look up the definition and the associated qualities and certify you on a basic level. If you are a depressed heroin addict, for example, people aren't going to award you your 'certificate of awakening'. It's pretty simple, right?

So we differ. You think there needs to be a certificate handed out, I think there doesn't. Moving along...

Personally, the only person I have witnessed in the flesh and in many videos, not to mention his writings, who comes close to the state of a truly awakened and enlightened being, is Thich Nhat Hanh. Comparing him to Adyashanti in videos, in terms of humility, tangible deep compassion, sensitivity, and peacefulness, I get a much deeper feeling of groundedness from TNH, personally.

Note that you're referring to something which I never did. Go back and look at what I said, and look at what you focus on. Two different things.

Do you know of any videos where TNH clearly defines the awakening experience and resulting viewpoint? I'd love to watch. I've never seen it expressed in the writings of his that I read, but then again, that was maybe 10 years ago and I may have missed it back then and not be able to remember it now.

You speak a lot about your awakened state in amongst the instructions you give- as if there is a necessary religious foundation to mindfulness practice,

Interesting. Do me a favor and cite them so I can see it for myself. My view is what I've experienced is outside of religion with no religious experience necessary.

If someone thinks I'm their solution and they're going to learn from me, the first thing I'll teach them is independence and not dependence on me.

It's baffling how someone can learn something from you without depending on you for anything - such as intructions or teachings, for example.

I think this is semantics. I used "dependence" in the sense of clinging. Does that help you understand my view?

Seems you indicated your version of "Gandhi" was that of a "savior" to someone.

Have a look back and you'll see that the "someone" was religious fanatics. That's a very specific and minority group - not the whole of India.

I was just showing you the reference, it came from your words and you were saying it wasn't.

I think I've been practicing mindfulness when considering the consequences of a person 'going live' with an awakened Buddha-type state in the world. I have my own visions for how I would like to help others in the world, so this is all part of seriously taking up the challenge - one can plan and predict - mindfully.

You seem to have minsintrerpreted this statement as me striving after this awakening of yours. This is not the case - I just do my mindfulness practice when I remember to.

I'm not even referring to that with that quote. I'll try it again.

Here's the context:

You mention spending a lot of time thinking "what if I become awakened?

No I haven't mentioned such a thing.

and the sentence that indicates you have mentioned such a thing:

I think I've been practicing mindfulness when considering the consequences of a person 'going live' with an awakened Buddha-type state in the world. I have my own visions for how I would like to help others in the world, so this is all part of seriously taking up the challenge - one can plan and predict - mindfully.

[JonW]

Hello BioSattva.
Yes. That message has been added to the general forum guidelines.
All best, Jon

[BioSattva]

So we differ. You think there needs to be a certificate handed out, I think there doesn't. Moving along...

Indeed; that's fine. And just to be clear - not a certificate in the sense of an official piece of paper, but in the metaphorical sense that you need to be seen to meet the criteria traditionally associated with an 'awakened person'. It is, after all, a very grandiose position to award yourself and to base the integrity of your advice upon. You yourself have mentioned the scandals involving other people in powerful positions of spiritual authority - self-declared awakened individuals or not. Such a self-declaration can not be taken on mere say-so and in blind faith in this day and age, don't you think?

Do you know of any videos where TNH clearly defines the awakening experience and resulting viewpoint? I'd love to watch.

I've seen a video where he states that all views are wrong views. If I was you I would go and meet the guy whenever you can - I mean, if you believe, having encountered him before in whatever way, that you are more awakened than him, then there is no risk of him doing any mind tricks, or whatever, right?

You speak a lot about your awakened state in amongst the instructions you give- as if there is a necessary religious foundation to mindfulness practice,

Interesting. Do me a favor and cite them so I can see it for myself. My view is what I've experienced is outside of religion with no religious experience necessary.

From your first post in this forum:

Normal. Completely normal. Some of our most unsettled times come before great insight. The months leading up to my awakening I was deeply troubled, and the last week was the most extreme and excruciating panic/fear/depression/loss I had ever experienced.
[...]
It's hard, but don't let those emotions determine your quality of life (or meditation). Those who have awakened all say how the mind and it's thoughts, and the feelings are more of an annoyance than anything.

And from your second post:

It would be really annoying to everyone else and especially to me if I were Omni all the time. Always spouting off about awakening, always going on about ultimate reality and how this or that is not real, it's dualism, etc. With the truth you can easily destroy the world as others know it.

I don't have the time to fetch any of the other examples, so hopefully this will do.

You need to start getting serious about your practice and spend as much time being mindful as you do dreaming out my future, or you'll be of no use to me or the rest of the world.

I think I've been practicing mindfulness when considering the consequences of a person 'going live' with an awakened Buddha-type state in the world. I have my own visions for how I would like to help others in the world, so this is all part of seriously taking up the challenge - one can plan and predict - mindfully.

The "this" is referring to the mindful planning. Replace the "this" with "mindful planning" and see what you get - it's the theme of your statement I was replying to - what you called "dreaming out my future" - and what I also called "considering the consequences". Personally I couldn't care less about me awakening at the moment. I'm aware of the possibility, but as far as I am aware, those kinds of things take care of themselves if they even exist. I could potentially help others in the world as an MBSR teacher, for example - there are ways to help others using mindfulness without becoming enlightened. This is apparently what some say the Mahayana Bodhisattva Ideal is all about, in fact. Jon Kabat-Zinn of MBSR seems to call it 'deeper vision'.

For some reason you have missed a key question I have asked you. Here it is again:

How does your methodology differ from Buddhism?

Once again all the best,

Bio.

[OmniPada]

Such a self-declaration can not be taken on mere say-so and in blind faith in this day and age, don't you think?

I have my own methods for determining whom I should follow. You need to select your own. I feel the end of this line of thinking has finally been reached. At least for me.

I've seen a video where he states that all views are wrong views. If I was you I would go and meet the guy whenever you can - I mean, if you believe, having encountered him before in whatever way, that you are more awakened than him, then there is no risk of him doing any mind tricks, or whatever, right?

I'm beginning to think you don't have a clear understanding of anything I've said. I've never said I've encountered anyone before, that I'm more awakened by anyone, nor that I'm worried about anyone doing mind tricks.

just more fabrication of your mind.

Since it doesn't seem like you're able to stick on topic, remember what was said, and that you like to keep inserting all your thoughts as if I'm the one that thought them, I'm not interested in continuing this line of discussion.

Don't try to defend yourself on this point. Just let the record of the thread speak for itself. It's certainly more than enough for me.

You speak a lot about your awakened state in amongst the instructions you give- as if there is a necessary religious foundation to mindfulness practice,

Interesting. Do me a favor and cite them so I can see it for myself. My view is what I've experienced is outside of religion with no religious experience necessary.

From your first post in this forum:

Normal. Completely normal. Some of our most unsettled times come before great insight. The months leading up to my awakening I was deeply troubled, and the last week was the most extreme and excruciating panic/fear/depression/loss I had ever experienced.
[...]

I missed how that was religious in nature.

It's hard, but don't let those emotions determine your quality of life (or meditation). Those who have awakened all say how the mind and it's thoughts, and the feelings are more of an annoyance than anything.

Again, I'm totally missing any religious connotation.

And from your second post:

It would be really annoying to everyone else and especially to me if I were Omni all the time. Always spouting off about awakening, always going on about ultimate reality and how this or that is not real, it's dualism, etc. With the truth you can easily destroy the world as others know it.

I don't have the time to fetch any of the other examples, so hopefully this will do.

Don't worry about fetching more. The three you cite have nothing about religion in them. The fact that you think they do, and that they actually don't, speaks enough.

As above, I don't see the purpose in continuing this line of discussion, don't try to come up with more or explain why you think something I've said has anything to do with a religion. My beliefs are 100% outside of religion and I don't think you have to have any particular religions experience to have experienced what I have.

moving on...

I think I've been practicing mindfulness when considering the consequences of a person 'going live' with an awakened Buddha-type state in the world. I have my own visions for how I would like to help others in the world, so this is all part of seriously taking up the challenge - one can plan and predict - mindfully.

The "this" is referring to the mindful planning. Replace the "this" with "mindful planning" and see what you get - it's the theme of your statement I was replying to - what you called "dreaming out my future" - and what I also called "considering the consequences".

Ah yes, and that explains the first sentence so well too. I'm glad you pointed it out.

As above, no purpose, moving on...

For some reason you have missed a key question I have asked you.

Or did I?

Here it is again:
How does your methodology differ from Buddhism?

There are some very large and glaring differences, but I don't see the purpose in discussing the differences of any methodology, mine or otherwise, with you in this forum.

Since it seems that all the topics in this post are ended, I'll be leaving this post the same way. I'd rather spend my time helping people that are looking for help. You jumped on my first post and I allowed you to drag me off on this wild discussion which is not what I'm interested in doing, nor is it what the moderators have expressed several times that they want for this forum. If you want to have this type of discussion with me, perhaps you can take it up in a place where it's more fitting and if I want to even talk about it.

Enjoy yourself,

Omni

[BioSattva]

I have my own methods for determining whom I should follow. You need to select your own.

I don't need anyone to follow as such - we have science now, so I follow scientific studies conducted within a clinically regulated setting.

I'm beginning to think you don't have a clear understanding of anything I've said. I've never said I've encountered anyone before, that I'm more awakened by anyone,

You said you read Thich Nhat Hanh's books - I considered that to have been you 'encountering' him. Anyway - it was just a side-line point. Just a recommendation about meeting somone. I thought you could know someone's level of awakening or understanding of reality just from their statements, so I assumed you had ruled Thich Nhat Hanh out of the 'awakened club', so to speak.

Don't try to defend yourself on this point.

A strange thing for an awakened one to say, I think.

I missed how that was religious in nature.
[...]
Again, I'm totally missing any religious connotation.
[...]
Don't worry about fetching more. The three you cite have nothing about religion in them. The fact that you think they do, and that they actually don't, speaks enough.

You say that your self-declared awakened state is the same as what Gautama Buddha experienced. This 'special' state, commanding spiritual authority over others who are prone to believing in it, as described within Buddhism, is not apparently considered secular on this forum. As Fee said above:

Everyday Mindfulness is a forum primarily concerned with forming a community around mindfulness in a secular but open- minded and supportive setting.
[...]
For the majority of this community, the concepts of “awakening” and “enlightenment” are not part of mindfulness practice and, as such, they would be better discussed elsewhere.

Whether one is awakened like a Buddha in the Buddhist Religion has absolutely no bearing on what one shares of one's own mindfulness practice on this forum, beyond saying "I think I had an experience like the Buddha's awakening after practicing what I call a form of mindfulness".

Using a religious experience to apparently qualify your advice on mindfulness practice does not seem to be taking in the broader premises of this forum - to make reflections on mindfulness practice in general - not just within a Buddhist, Buddhist-leaning, any religious, or 'New Age Spiritual' context.

Awakenings and Enlightenments - the same as those experienced by Gautama Buddha - are considered mystical experiences found within a religion of sorts - it is beyond the everyday phenomena we are used to and have encountered in a quantifiable way. This forum doesn't apparently recognise 'religious authority' on mindfulness practice in general - that which is being discussed by the people on this forum. It apparently recognises what religions containing mindfulness practices can bring to the potentially secular mindfulness practices of others, but does not give authority on the secular scientific definition of mindfulness to those religions.

Can you imagine if an MBSR practitioner was to begin a thread stating "I practice mindfulness when I go to see a prostitute", and suddenly someone chimes in "That's considered sexual misconduct within Buddhism - you're practicing Buddhism wrong". Similarly, your statements mentioning Awakening and Awakened states seem to assume that posters here all default authority to "Those who have awakened" - whoever they are. The truth is that many people here, including myself, and it seems the forum founders, do not give the authority on the definition and practice of mindfulness to "Those who have awakened". Instead they give that authority to science and scientific definitions. I hope you can see I have been keeping in line with that theme the whole time.

don't try to come up with more or explain why you think something I've said has anything to do with a religion.

More of that again, lol; "I have spoken, now you can't" - the words of an Awakened One?

Here it is again: How does your methodology differ from Buddhism?

There are some very large and glaring differences, but I don't see the purpose in discussing the differences of any methodology, mine or otherwise, with you in this forum.

Since it seems that all the topics in this post are ended, I'll be leaving this post the same way.

That's a shame - keeping it a secret means we can't benefit from your experience in practising mindfulness. Never mind. For what it's worth, you seem like a really nice guy; clever, funny, and great at discussing details.

Thanks again for spending the time here on this thread - people have been telling me that they have been enjoying it immensely.

Bio.

PS: Here is a video on youtube of Thich Nhat Hanh's voice talking about what awakening is: The Buddha and enlightenment

[OmniPada]

You said you read Thich Nhat Hanh's books - I considered that to have been you 'encountering' him. Anyway - it was just a side-line point. Just a recommendation about meeting somone. I thought you could know someone's level of awakening or understanding of reality just from their statements, so I assumed you had ruled Thich Nhat Hanh out of the 'awakened club', so to speak.

Yes, but you had said I thought I was superior, etc. Interesting you completely side-step the evidence of your inability to keep track of what is and isn't said.

Don't try to defend yourself on this point.

A strange thing for an awakened one to say, I think.

My meaning was obvious, don't keep prolonging this conversation by trying to defend yourself. Just let the thread itself stand witness of what you've said and didn't say. No defense needed.

Everyday Mindfulness is a forum primarily concerned with forming a community around mindfulness in a secular but open- minded and supportive setting.
[...]
For the majority of this community, the concepts of “awakening” and “enlightenment” are not part of mindfulness practice and, as such, they would be better discussed elsewhere.

and yet you promote teachers that teach awakening, enlightenment, etc, even links directly to their videos where they do so.

And in their videos, interestingly, the teachers you recommend actually say all of these words are the same thing.

I really don't know what to think about you any more Bio, you seem quite confused. The longer you talk the more you cross your own words. As you said "it's a big knot" and you can't unravel it. You thought you might be able to by talking more, but it seems your knot is growing.

Let's put an end to your madness. Let's stop the discussion. Really.

Awakenings and Enlightenments - the same as those experienced by Gautama Buddha - are considered mystical experiences found within a religion of sorts -

While I disagree with you, again, since you believe this so strongly you should consider stopping violating the rules to which you so tightly cling.

Again, I'm at a loss on how to help you in such a confused state.

don't try to come up with more or explain why you think something I've said has anything to do with a religion.

More of that again, lol; "I have spoken, now you can't" - the words of an Awakened One?

On the contrary my friend, I gave the reasoning for the statement above. I think you just can't see it that clearly. And notice the more you try to tie it to religion the more of the delima you make for yourself because either you're pushing religions experience on this site vis-a-vis TNH or your wrong about them being religious. It looks like you've built a no-win scenario for yourself.

Again, same loss of words on how to help such a confused state.

That's a shame - keeping it a secret means we can't benefit from your experience in practising mindfulness. Never mind. For what it's worth, you seem like a really nice guy; clever, funny, and great at discussing details.

I may be all those things, but discussing these things with you doesn't bring clarity to anything. We just spend all our time dealing with your knots.

I've accepted that I can't help you. I hope you accept it to so you feel free to move on.

Thanks again for spending the time here on this thread - people have been telling me that they have been enjoying it immensely.

Probably the same guys that tell me how much they're enjoying it.

PS: Here is a video on youtube of Thich Nhat Hanh's voice talking about what awakening is: The Buddha and enlightenment

You're killing me. He doesn't actually describe awakening. But he does equivalate enlightenment, awareness, and mindfulness.

So something is really really wrong here. You're posting videos on this site of people who use words like enlightenment and awakening (yep, he used them throughout the video) and you claim those words are religious, so you're actually breaking your own rules.

To top it off, you're arguing against me when I say enlightenment and awakening aren't religious words, that they equivalate to the mindful practice. But I'm saying the same thing TNH says, whom you are recommending to others!!!

Pick just one of these that you will claim to be right on, and the other that you'll admit your wrong. Such a knot...

You're so mixed up... I feel compassion for you my friend. I don't know what else I can do for you.

[BioSattva]

you had said I thought I was superior, etc.

No I haven't said that. This habit of saying people say things when they haven't is becoming a bit of a signature for you on this forum, Omni. Please do try to reference correctly, otherwise it looks like an attempt to tweak and manipulate the reality we are all sharing here.

Don't try to defend yourself on this point.

A strange thing for an awakened one to say, I think.

My meaning was obvious, don't keep prolonging this conversation by trying to defend yourself.

Haha, and then you go and do it again.

If you don't want to discuss anything, then don't reply - it's as simple as that; I won't be offended. I know you are a busy man. If you are verbally engaging me, then I'm assuming that you are intrested in discussing things further - unless, that is, you just want to have the last word, so to speak, lol.

and yet you promote teachers that teach awakening, enlightenment, etc, even links directly to their videos where they do so.

At times I share the perspective on on secular mindfulness practice that religious teachers can bring when they leave out mystical or religious notions in their mindfulness instruction - teachers such as Thich Nhat Hanh. I never present his teachings as "an Enlightened Zen Buddhist Master says you should do it like this". I don't make the assumption that people on this forum default authority on mindfulness to Enlightened Zen Masters, Awakened Ones, Eastern Orthodox Christians, or whatever other religious or mystical tradition. By asserting that a mystical or religious person or organisation is an authority on mindfulness (as practiced within that organisation or 'tradition' as an integral part of the mystical path they promote), it seems I would be undermining the secular scientific definition adhered to on this forum.

If you look at any of my posts where I present such teachers as Thich Nhat Hanh, you will (hopefully) see that I do not appreciate them for their mystical or religious authority, but for what they can bring to secular mindfulness practice - as experienced teachers whose mindfulness methodology has significant overlaps with secular mindfulness methodology. I, or we, are not looking to them for their religious or mystical power or position, but for any embellishment to the scientific 'everyday' approach to practicing mindfulness. Einstein apparently had his own spiritual beliefs, but that didn't undermine the secular value of his scientific practice.

The religious or mystical positions of teachers are not useful to the advice they give us here because we are practicing and sharing within a secular context. Their experience, and their reflections upon the part of their mindfulness practices which overlap with secular mindfulness are useful here, however. If all this wasn't the case, we'd all be off on Buddhism or 'New Age Spirituality' forums, or wherever.

I can happily repeat and reframe all of this in every post as many times as you need to hear it - I think this perspective is essential to the success of this forum - the first of it's size and nature in the world, and a wonderful place for mutually respectful mindfulness methodology exploration. Hopefully you will want to continue to discuss mindfulness methodology with us here in this spirit.

As you said "it's a big knot" and you can't unravel it.

Nope - again attributing words to me that I didn't say, and I can untangle the tangles you are creating (like revealing these posts of yours where you are tweaking and manipulating reality) - you using speech marks as if it is a direct quote, etc., and yet it takes time. I prefer asking you to improve your accuracy of quoting and comprehension.

Let's put an end to your madness. Let's stop the discussion. Really.

So I'm mad. Lol, thanks.

Why don't we just communicate further - as mutually respectful friends? It seems many people are benefitting from all this. No experience is without value. I think we have a lot in common in the way we approach the world . C'mon, admit it!

I'm at a loss on how to help you in such a confused state.

You can help me by telling me (and many other people on this forum):
1) How your mindfulness methodology differs from Buddhism.
2) How your mindfulness methodology differs from MBSR.

Since you apparently know nothing of MBSR, and I have seen your videos on meditation and have heard you talk about some of your methodology already on this forum - of which it appears the same as MBSR on the most part, apart from the whole "every day is a good day" meditation thing, I am in a much more informed place than you in this discussion in the context of this forum and what it is rooted in. You may think I am confused because you don't actually know what I am talking about when I reference MBSR teachings. Have you considered you may be projecting your own confusion on to me?

Maybe you think you know what MBSR is - the very system which is giving this forum it's secular and scientific definition of mindfulness, and therefore the system at the foundation of this very forum you are writing on - when in fact you don't know what MBSR is. Maybe this is the key issue here?

you're pushing religions experience on this site vis-a-vis TNH

Nope - my link to the video above was an example of a religious teacher explaining a mystical and religious notion - that of awakening like a Buddha - something which I think has needed clarifying on this thread. I do not wish or intend to 'push' his religious experience as adding any additional value to his reflections on his mindfulness practices which overlap with secular mindfulness practices.

Beyond that, TNH's experience in teaching the very same mindfulness meditation as practised in secular settings without needing to verify or qualify the effectiveness of those teachings with mystical or religious notions or 'rewards' are apparently perfectly acceptable here on this forum, as are your experiences presented in a secular framework.

I've accepted that I can't help you.

Lol, such a dramatic atmosphere. I certainly don't see this as a drama - there's no conflict, just a few apparent communication issues which can be ironed out. One human who lived a long time ago, who just happened to be called Gautama Buddha, managed to stop a war occurring between two communities living on either side of a river by communicating in a respectful, calm, and relaxed manner - something the other parties didn't seem able to do at that time because their emotional reactions to their perceived conflict distorted their cognitive abiliites. I'm sure Gautama wasn't the first human to be able to do this, and I'm sure such ability does not require any mystical or religious achievement to accomplish it; just the mindfulness of MBSR can seemingly improve one's capacity.

If you want to know more about MBSR methodology, maybe checking out the Seven Pillars of Mindfulness is a good place to start - I began a thread to try and present them in a more concise way here, if you are interested, and you can find detail and context within the first few chapters of Jon Kabat-Zinn's Full Catastrophe Living.

You're killing me. He doesn't actually describe awakening.

I didn't say he does. I have never heard him describe awakening and that may be because he thinks it is as pointless as I think it is. If he describes the awakened state and what that state is, and he seems to fulfill all the criteria of an awakened individual, however, then this points to his potential awakened state as defined by a religious/mystical teacher.

I am just indulging you at this moment regarding the discussion of awakening in the Buddhist sense for the purposes of this thread on this forum - hopefully it will serve as a historic milestone in the Moderators' on-going development of the forum's secular tone. I consider maintained discussion of awakening like a Buddha a bit like 'mindfulness porn' in this day and age - potentially incredibly toxic. Striving for such a state can be a personal thing depending on one's notion (however necessarily inaccurate) of what an 'Awakening' is, but one thing is clear - a person considering Awakening like a Buddha is not necessary for mindfulness practice to be beneficial in that person's life.

I have absolutely no interest in seriously discussing the details of Awakening like Gautama Buddha ever again on this forum beyond this thread.

Bio.

[OmniPada]

you had said I thought I was superior, etc.

No I haven't said that. This habit of saying people say things when they haven't is becoming a bit of a signature for you on this forum, Omni. Please do try to reference correctly, otherwise it looks like an attempt to tweak and manipulate the reality we are all sharing here.

read your second paragraph

You're really in sad shape. You say that I think I'm more than TNH (or maybe Adya, kinda hard to tell which one you're referring to), etc.

How can you not know your own words?

I can happily repeat and reframe all of this in every post as many times as you need to hear it

exactly, you have to keep refraiming everything you've said. Were it framed correctly the first time there would be no need.

As you said "it's a big knot" and you can't unravel it.

Nope - again attributing words to me that I didn't say,

It's getting rich. You really are delusional.

roughly 14th paragraph you type

Here's the quote:

None of these are true in the context of this thread from my perspective - there is a huge tangle here, and there isn't enough time to unravel it - hopefully it will come loose by itself as we continue to discuss things.

I'm chopping out all your "maybies" amazing how you just keep dreaming stuff up.

I have absolutely no interest in seriously discussing the details of Awakening like Gautama Buddha ever again on this forum beyond this thread.

Excellent.

So, this thread has resorted to nothing but your funny attempts to keep injecting it with more stuff you want to talk about, but I don't, and you constantly saying you didn't say this, you didn't say that when there are direct references where that's exactly what you said.

Good-bye Bio. It started out nice, but it appears your whole goal wasn't to learn anything except how long you could keep me going.