What are you going to do now?

[OmniPada]

Omni, thanks for your reply - very lengthy for a forum post (mine tend to be quite long too), but I think I'm seeing where you are coming from more now.

Way out in left field. :^D Just beyond where the crazies live. heh heh

Well, I'm glad connecting more fully.

It could save a lot of time if I didn't have to read it again in the middle of our discussion, and it would save you time too.

I appreciate your point, which is a sensible request. The difficulty is I don't know what you know, so I don't know what to write that you already know. Also, we don't know what others who will read what we write know and don't know. I think it's good if a thread could be self-contained at least within it's own context, with enough information for the uninformed to follow along and of course ask for more detail if needed.

I could also request that you skip the sections of what I post that you already know. You'll know ahead of time what they are by the same mechanism you want me to know ahead of time what you already know. :^D

Either way, it's all a balance. Not enough, too much. Life will find us somewhere in between.

That said, some of the ways you have put teachings I have heard before was great as a refresher, and provided me with another way to present the methodology to myself as well as others. Seeing how other people make contact and interpret the MBSR methodology is my core source of enjoyment here on this forum, so I am looking forward to seeing more. Yours is particularly unique, so I'm very much enjoying our interactions.

Me to. It's nice to have such mutually beneficial conversation.

Once a lawyer asked Jesus how to have eternal life, Jesus turned it on him and asked him how he read it. The lawyer replied to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said the man had said well.

I am an atheist these days - just in case you were mistaken that I believed in God, or a 'Son of God', since I mentioned Jesus in a previous post. I tend to think that if he had truly existed that he was a simple human mindfulness teacher - maybe even secular like JKZ, and that others embellished his gospels to fit in with superstitious beliefs.

Yep. I totally get your view. My quoting Jesus wasn't to reinforce some idea that he's god, son of god, etc. Although I was raised christian, I don't believe anything that popular christianity believes today.

I was only using this familiar story (to me and most of the culture I live in) to bring out the point of who we should help.

Thanks for allowing me to clarify this a little more, including your next question:

That's just my angle. Do you believe in God?

I could give you a single-word answer "yes" but you'd know no more about what I believe than before I answered that question.

I think with people that believe there is a "God", it's not if they believe or don't believe, it's how they believe that God is. And this makes all the world of difference.

My concept of God is that he (using "he" in the sense of object, not genderfication) is not a person or personality. He isn't a being as we think of them. All is one. There's only one creation, one existence, one actual reality. He would not be an individual piece of this, or separate from this. He would be the same as it in the same way that the real me is also that one creation, existence, reality.

The bridging thought that helped me understand "God" the way I do today was realizing the non-personality of God. I began to understand him more as the principles of creation, the foundations of existence.

And that thought then lead me to yet another, a painter paints what he has within him. It's an expression of himself as he is within. When you see the painting, you see the painter. There is not "painting" and "painter", there's no line between the two, they are just one thing. The thing (within painter) and the expression of that thing (painting). They can't be distinguished when viewed correctly.

The fabric of ultimate reality is this expression. The fabric of existence is this expression.

This eliminates a God that controls things, changes the course of humanity, requires someone's life in exchange for sin, etc. All those religious beliefs don't fit.

And to be clear, this also is not pantheism. The worship of what is created as God itself. Because that also now makes "God" to be an entity, something separate. We can only worship something we see as separate.

My view is the one ultimate reality of which I am, you are, etc, there's only one. What is there now to worship? Can the one worship itself?

And now we're into duality. I won't write about it, you've probably read enough to have that background, just to say the view of separateness is an illusion. Those that view God as a separate entity are still looking from the view of duality.

I'm not interested in living too much in the future, wondering about fame, stardom, being labeled a radical, hated by religious leaders, etc.

If we go out in the snow, we wear a warm jacket. Declaring oneself awakened in the vein of a Buddha will be met by 'cold receptions' in many instances, if history is anything to go on - I am only highlighting this point. It's wise, in my opinion, to look at those who have walked the path before you. In Israel, for example, they don't take kindly to false prophets - declaring oneself as a Messiah and being proven otherwise has serious consequences. It's quite a risky thing you are doing in a global context - mindfully taking heed of that is worthwhile, I think.

Hmmm. I think maybe I'm not communicating myself clearly in this point.

One who called himself prophet in the context of Israel is in essence saying "do what I say, I'm speaking from God". The "prophet" claim was a statement with implications on the actions of others.

Claiming you're awakened doesn't have that same connotation. Claiming to be Buddha / a Buddha (which remember, I don't make that claim) doesn't have that connotation.

To me it's the same as one saying "I used to be an alcoholic, but I've made my way out of it." To which I add "and I'd like to help you do the same if you're interested". Even Gautama announced himself in the same way. He didn't go challenge all the religions to subjugate them to his authority. One who is awakened doesn't do that. One who is awakened seeks not to impose anything on others.

I'm not a Gandhi thinking I've got an India to save.

I am a man, who through mindfulness has found a path of enlightenments that lead me to fully see the fallacy of the self and the ultimate reality on which my existence is based. I seek not to impose anything on others. I care not for followers. I care not to challenge other leaders.

I think my view of myself and what I'm saying isn't the same as what you keep saying about messiahs, false prophets, Gandhi, etc.

You talk about playing roles as needed, but I am assuming you can't hold back your compassionate nature when someone in serious need of help approaches you.... so you have a 'permanent' role that is unavoidable in that respect, don't you think?

No. For when I sleep, all roles come to an end. Even in some wild extreme scenario that you'd like to draw out I'd still have the privacy of my own life, my own interior which none can intrude upon.

I'm not sure how someone approaching you for help would be intrusion. Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. I was pointing to the situation that if you say you are unconditionally compassionate and that you intend to help anyone, then that role you have created for yourself will be utilised by people. If you refuse them - at any point - in a way which seems to breach that unconditionally compassionate role, then you will not be able to fulfil your role - for example, if you have a spare room in your house and a homeless guy knocks on your door, it seems you can't refuse - or any equivalent scenario. It seems we all have an inherent instinct for unconditional compassion installed when we were in our mother's womb - something JKZ refers to - every human has a 'radar' for it, so to speak.

I'm not here to live up to someone else's expectations of unconditional love. The drug-addict relative will yell and curse at you, saying how much you don't love them, you hate them because you aren't giving in to their addiction. Does that make it so?

Look at this another way.

Someone accepts that I'm awakened and can help them. I tell them "this is how I can help you, get your own life, move out of my garden, come see me once a week on Saturdays at 5pm". If they say "no, the one who can help me has this unconditional love and can help me while I live in their garden", my reply will be "then I must not be the one with unconditional love, you should continue to search for them as I've just disqualified myself as the one that can help you according to your standard."

I don't really see the issue. Just because someone thinks if I say I am awakened that now I must be their door mat doesn't mean I will be. Who has the problem? And if they really want me to help them, then i will help them in the way *I think* they need it, not according to what they think.

I think we've hit this topic enough times. I'm just retyping myself each time. Let's retire it for now please.

Plus, I'll have you handing out the t-shirts keeping them all busy at the Omni-swag table. Just kidding.

I *love* mixing humor in with really serious topics. I'm a dry-humor kinda guy. Typically I leave the smiles and the "just kidding" lines out to make it as dry as possible. But I realize that also makes me hard to read for those who don't already understand what I'm saying. They think I'm serious all the time (which then reads really contradictory and everyone gets all confused).

You need to start getting serious about your practice and spend as much time being mindful as you do dreaming out my future, or you'll be of no use to me or the rest of the world.

Boy, I hope you read that a little more gently than it seems that I wrote it. Didn't mean to say it so point-blank. I think I was still living off of the humor from the point before when I wrote it, so I half-meant it, but was half-seriously pointing it out.

I think I've been practicing mindfulness when considering the consequences of a person 'going live' with an awakened Buddha-type state in the world. I have my own visions for how I would like to help others in the world, so this is all part of seriously taking up the challenge - one can plan and predict - mindfully. There is a difference between planning a trip to the seaside and fantasizing about splashing around in the water. I see myself as a cheerleader on the side as you are doing your thing,

Welcome to the Omni-cheer squad. :^D

and trying to help by shouting out "watch out, it seems there's a potential obstacle!" - I fully support what you are doing; it's very brave, and I want to see it all work out. Please see my pointers as pointers

That's 100% perfect. I appreciate your candor, help, cheering, etc. I'd like to help you one-on-one realize the same thing I have realized. Then you will work at your best to help me, help yourself, help others, whatever. I offer this in full sincerity. I'm here to only help you.

- mindfully exploring your plan to help others realise your awakened state.

Ummm, subtle difference. I'm not making any plans to help others realize my awakened state. I don't really care. Really. Don't care. Someone realizing my state or not realizing my state doesn't help them with theirs in the slightest.

This isn't some thing that I can show them some miracle and they would then be convinced and then listen to my every word and obey my every command.

It's more like if they have a problem and I'm able to help them through it by self-realization so that this problem is then worked completely out of their life, then they may realize the value I can bring to their life and will be more apt to listen or to ask for help in other areas.

On the first step they may doubt I even know what I'm talking about. After an initial success they will at best conclude that I'm a little further down the path than they are. After a series of changes they may accept that I've made it to the end of the path.

All along the way it didn't really matter if they accepted or even knew I was at the end of the path. Only if they would be willing to try something different (than what they had already tried that didn't work).

This is the difference between blind belief and what I think is the right method. Gautama even said to only believe what you had tried and found to be true, not to believe anything that he said because he had said it. I believe the same.

The proof is in the pudding. (make mine banana, Omni loves him some banana pudding)

There would be a consistency in message at my site, here you may get some very conflicting messages, and by helping people directly here I'd be encouraging them to stay in this environment where they will meet conflict and possibly get hurt.

It's OK - we have mindful Mods for scanning content here on this forum. I encourage all posters interested in secular mindfulness to stay on this forum - I don't think posters will necessarily meet conflict as long as we are all ultimately defaulting to tried and tested MBSR methodology. Your situation seems to be a special one within the MBSR framework, since those creating and dispensing the core teachings have not declared themselves 'fully awakened' people who never get angry anymore, as far as I know. As yet, such people only exist within religious frameworks, as opposed to secular ones.

Yeah, it's been a tough break for me. Years and years in the works until I realized the religious context wasn't suited to my core beliefs. And it wasn't until I fully left that context and was comfortable with it that I let myself continue to the point of awakening. I believe if I had stayed I would have held some doubt about continuing and I wouldn't have progressed. I only see that looking back. There's no way to know it when you're in it.

What if, for example, someone asked you if they could come and camp in your garden and learn from you?

Remember, it's a ditch, and a muddy one at that.

It's not necessary to live in my garden to learn from me. First lesson I'd teach them is how to find their own place. If they completely submit themselves to whatever teaching I'd give, they'd have to go get their own life as their first instruction.

So people need to have their own place first in order to learn how to become awakened from you, and having a place of one's own is having one's own life? If so, that is very interesting.

What?

No, everyone that "learns how to become awakened from me" (your words) doesn't have to have their own place, have their own life.

The one that thinks he will live in my garden obviously has larger issues, his path out of these issues is living to live a normalized life, not one that is codependent on me.

Codependency is dangerous for everyone involved.

Someone living at home with their parents may not have to "move out and get their own place with their own life."

It's as if you take one statement I made for one specific case that you bring up (someone living in my garden) and then try to apply that one statement to everyone that I would help.

Everyone's path is different. You can't read a how-to book on awakening and follow some 10-step list of things to become awakened.

You have to follow your own path that deals with your individual issues and personal development, the enlightenments you may receive that seem revolutionary to you and bring about amazing changes in your life may be common place to the one next to you, and they need some other understanding in order to progress.

This seems to be your first diversion from that which Gautama Buddha preached. Maybe this could be the future of mindful awakening for the modern world? Having one's own life is having a house, and then one is ready to become awakened - the Omni-way.

You've lept to this conclusion. This isn't what I meant at all. Consider going back and re-reading what I just posted above and what I originally posted from where you're quoting.

Helping someone isn't giving them what they ask for or what they want. It's giving them what they need. No one needs to live in my garden to become enlightened or awakened. It's actually counter productive.

Nearly all the Buddha's closest disciples lived in his 'garden' so to speak. It was a very efficient way for them to learn. Can you expand a little on how it is counterproductive in your situation?

The attitude of codependency and blind-following can arise.

One major difference between Gautama and my situation is he had lived "in the woods" with his closest friends and they already had this "camp in the garden" culture so it was a natural fit for them without there being codependency or blind-following. In our culture people that would camp out in my garden won't have the same relationship with me as those who camped out with Gautama. Different culture, different mindset, different methods of relating in the same ways.

You can't take what worked in one culture and stamp it on every other culture and think it will work the same.

Similar to my statement above on different paths for each person.

Have you considered meeting other apparently 'awakened' individuals, like Thich Nhat Hanh, to discuss your experience? Do you want to make sure that this term 'awakened' you are applying to yourself is correct in the context of Zen Buddhism and mindfulness practice?

Oh? It seems you think Zen Buddhism and mindfulness practice is what owns this term "awakened" as if the Thervada-based Buddhism is irrelevant to awakening as are the other forms of Mahayana Buddhism.

Apologies for the lack of clarity - I was framing it more in the MBSR tradition, having apparently mainly come from Zen Buddhist teachers and teachings, and yet I did include "mindfulness practice" in my question - of course that can incorporate the mindfulness practice found in Theravada et al, and apparently even non-Buddhism, like Hesychasm, for example.

Consider reading your sentence exactly as you wrote it. It's good that you see you have the zen-oriented outlook, but I think maybe you miss how this zen-oriented outlook is affecting you.

It appears that you're an absolutist. I arrive at this after the series of statements you've made throughout this particular post where you seem to only be able to see a solution one-way. Some lose take-away points from your discussion:

1. All awakened are like Gandhi with an India to save or will run into trouble with leaders and will have great followings.
2. I say to the one that would live in my garden to go get his own place as his first step in awakening and you want to blanket-apply that to everyone I'd ever help.
3. They lived in Gautama's garden and that method worked for him, so it needs to be followed by anyone claiming to be awakened.
4. Certification in zen buddhism of the correct application to myself of the word "awakened".
5. Your placement of me in the MBSR framework. There's a subtle difference here, it doesn't appear that you're trying to view my statements (which are not within the MBSR context) from your MBSR experience, it feels as if there's the assumption that whatever I'm stating is coming from within MBSR, as is the entire context of this site. I haven't been on the site long, but your use of "MBSR" is the only occurrences of it that I've seen, so it doesn't seem to be a site-specific context.

On all of these points you seem to be ridgidly set and when I offer a different view, saying that the absolutism application you're making to me doesn't fit my view, you just come back with the same original absolutism view again. No "ah, now I see, you don't have an India you think you need to save". It's as if you keep trying to fit everything I say about my different viewpoint into your singular viewpoint.

I don't criticize you in pointing this out. And I'm happy to be wrong. It doesn't really matter to me. Please be whatever way you find to be the most comfortable. We're still friends and you've still got the Omni swag-table job. :^D

But if you can see some validity in my point and don't want to be absolutist (or perceived as absolutist), I'm happy to help.

If I'm reading you wrong on these points, feel free to correctly state your position.

So how about the question about meeting other apparently awakened individuals - those who have been "reading the book" in their awakened status longer than you, and are therefore an experiential resource regarding your present awakened state? I think if I was to consider myself in such an awakened state, and since MBSR doesn't really seem to offer other awakened individuals, I would go to meet those who appear to see things in the same way I do. Getting advice from them could be incredibly useful - this is beyond verification, more about seeking guidance from another who has been 'doing the job' longer.

Please note your original line was "do you want to make sure that this term 'awakened' you are applying to yourself is correct in the context of..."

This reads different to me than "get advice from". Maybe it's just me.

I don't mind getting advice from anyone. There is only one person alive who's description of awakening sounds like mine. I've read many many books by many many different eastern authors both dead and alive. None of them talk about awakening this way. They all sound as if they are still in the process without having seen it's end yet. (subtle point here, even though I've seen the end, I'm still also in the process, don't get confused on this, we can start another thread to deal with it if necessary).

He has a zen background but left it because of the differences between his personal experience and the zen "tradition". I can't really speak for him so I'm not interested in discussing further on this point.

I do plan on traveling to see him. But I'm not sure I will just drop in and say "I'm awakened, can you give me the 'standardized universal awakened test' so I can see what I score?" I'm not really interested.

In awakening there's nothing to prove.

I have watched how he's developed his center, and I may learn some operational things like that from him, but I'll learn that by observation. I may also learn from him pitfalls to avoid like not letting people camp out in your garden. But I don't need some "how to setup your own center" handbook or similar.

If you're wanting me to present credentials as proof, I'm not interested. A doubter can never be satisfied. This is religion.

But MBSR isn't a religion.

Umm, no. What I'm saying is the presentation of credentials is what religion does. Someone who "has authority" (and from where did he get it?) grants someone else certification. No one can certify you're awakened. Even as Gautama demonstrated by touching the ground saying it would be the witness - that is the grounding of ultimate reality is the only thing from which the proof/witness can come.

Note how you're reading MBSR into my reply even though it wasn't in your question nor in my reply. Leads me to think #5 above.

If I may, you spend a lot of time in the future. And not even in your future, you've spent a lot of time in my future. I recommend you track how many times you catch yourself in any other timezone than the present (especially when not thinking about my future). And when you do, just think about why you took that particular time trip. In a short time you'll find a theme or two and how to deal with it will be apparent. And dealing with it will bring you some liberation.

Again there is an apparent difference between mindfully predicting and planning, and actually daydreaming and fantasising. What do you think about that?

It appears to me what you're doing isn't mindfully predicting or planning as related to me or my future. Maybe for yours, but not for mine.

You mention spending a lot of time thinking "what if I become awakened? I'll need to do this and that" but the more you think about that, the less likely it is that you'll awaken. Awaken first, then figure out what you're going to do with it.

It's like a guy planning how he's going to spend his salary from a new job after he graduates from school, but he doesn't pay any attention to his classes and flunks out. Worry about graduating first, then think about landing a job, then about what to do with the money.

Early on I had some friends that were further down the path than I, they all told me I thought about things too much. And they were right. I needed more practice, less thought.

Now, I see all the thoughts of the mind as a sea of uselessness. Just a bunch of noise. It's all fabricated, no reality in it. From what I can tell, awakened masters of the past all viewed the mind as something to be more ignored rather than something to pay attention to because it's a source of truth.

It's like a TV, only it's always switching channels and making you watch a bunch of stuff that wastes your time. It's only value is in you controlling the remote and watching very limited things, and then turning it off the rest of the time so you can have some peace and quite.

It's all here already - we just have to do it, as the advice goes.

Yep. I think that advice is quite fitting.

And now I'm reflecting on something you said above. On not wanting me to waste your time writing things you've already read, and that a lot of what I've written is what you've already read. Consider that there is a difference between knowing something and learning it. The only way to learn is to practice it. You've read a lot. You've listened a lot. You've gathered a lot of information. But what have you done with it? Or rather, what have you allowed it to do with you?

I used to take refuge in thought. I would read to learn, because learning is the end itself, the reward. Thus my friends telling me the truth that I thought about things too much. I still have that trait. But knowledge for the sake of learning is no use. Literally "use". To make knowledge useful, it must be used.

If I can help you, it would be in recommending that you forget knowing for a while and live without planning. The natural response to this recommendation is to ask for the how-to book, but that's exactly it, there isn't one, the whole point of just living.

[JonW]

"To affect the quality of the day, that is the highest of the arts."
(Henry David Thoreau)

"There's a lot to be said for pithiness."
(Me)

[OmniPada]

This has all been very strange.

Yeah, like being in the conversation, talking with everyone, but then slowly realizing they are talking about you and around you but not with you.

Of course, you may be meaning strange in another way.

[OmniPada]

"There's a lot to be said for pithiness."
(Me)

Then you'll love my twitter feed. It's a lot said, all pithy-like.

:^D

[BioSattva]

"There's a lot to be said for pithiness."
(Me)

Then you'll love my twitter feed. It's a lot said, all pithy-like.

:^D

I especially like this tweet:

"@taiyocollection awe, you say that to all the cute awakened guys. (Blushes)"

[OmniPada]

"There's a lot to be said for pithiness."
(Me)

Then you'll love my twitter feed. It's a lot said, all pithy-like.

:^D

I especially like this tweet:

"@taiyocollection awe, you say that to all the cute awakened guys. (Blushes)"

yeah, that one was funny. It's like she comes out of know-where (get it?) and acts like she knew me from way-back.

Did you see her response? It only gets more hilarious.

[BioSattva]

Claiming you're awakened doesn't have that same connotation. Claiming to be Buddha / a Buddha (which remember, I don't make that claim) doesn't have that connotation.
[...]
There is only one person alive who's description of awakening sounds like mine. I've read many many books by many many different eastern authors both dead and alive. None of them talk about awakening this way. They all sound as if they are still in the process without having seen it's end yet.
[...]
He has a zen background but left it because of the differences between his personal experience and the zen "tradition". I can't really speak for him so I'm not interested in discussing further on this point.

I do plan on traveling to see him.
[...]
I have watched how he's developed his center, and I may learn some operational things like that from him, but I'll learn that by observation. I may also learn from him pitfalls to avoid like not letting people camp out in your garden.

It would be great if you could make clear how your awakening differs from that of Gautama Buddha's and tell us who this man who defines your awakened state is. Why the apparent mystery and secrecy?

To me it's the same as one saying "I used to be an alcoholic, but I've made my way out of it." To which I add "and I'd like to help you do the same if you're interested".
[...]
I'd like to help you one-on-one realize the same thing I have realized. Then you will work at your best to help me, help yourself, help others, whatever. I offer this in full sincerity. I'm here to only help you.
[...]
I'm not making any plans to help others realize my awakened state. I don't really care. Really. Don't care. Someone realizing my state or not realizing my state doesn't help them with theirs in the slightest.
[...]
It's more like if they have a problem and I'm able to help them through it by self-realization so that this problem is then worked completely out of their life, then they may realize the value I can bring to their life and will be more apt to listen or to ask for help in other areas.

This is all a bit confusing.

I care not to challenge other leaders.

Do you consider yourself a leader of sorts? What kind of leader?

I'm not here to live up to someone else's expectations of unconditional love.
[...]
No one can certify you're awakened.

Well expectations and certain certifiable traits seem to come with the territory if one is associating oneself - as an awakened individual in the vein of Gautama Buddha - with certain already understood definitions of an awakened person. Such a person is apparently considered to be the epitome of a compassionate and unconditionally loving individual - there are certain criteria traditionally associated with an 'awakened', Fully Enlightened one who is liberated from suffering. Here are some of the expected traits as I have come to know them:

1) A Deep Humility.
2) A Tangible Embodiment of Compassion.
3) No excitement.
4) A deep interest in helping all other sentient beings.
5) Never angered.
6) Not actively seeking sexual gratification - especially not from students or strangers.
7) Not criticizing others.

The Buddha never murdered anyone, for example. It would be difficult to be considered a peaceful person if one did such a thing.

As I said before, I think all people have a deep subconscious awareness of what an unconditionally loving individual is and could be. It's not an expectation but a general understanding beyond concepts. It's like looking at a plant and feeling supported by it's 'aliveness', but on a human scale.

The drug-addict relative will yell and curse at you, saying how much you don't love them, you hate them because you aren't giving in to their addiction. Does that make it so?

Unconditional love and true compassion could be argued to be a better drug. There's no reason why such a person wouldn't drop one drug for another. The story of Gautama Buddha meeting the murderer Angulimala spring to mind - the murderer dropped his then addiction to killing people to be ordained by the Buddha - within a very short time span.

Just because someone thinks if I say I am awakened that now I must be their door mat doesn't mean I will be.

I think it's strange you saying that you wish to help others and have unbridled compassion but appear not willing to follow up on that statement if people come to you for help. How is a homeless guy, for example, coming to your house and asking if he can stay in your empty room for the night, using you as a "door mat"? I would assume you would be all too happy to help such an individual, right?

You need to start getting serious about your practice and spend as much time being mindful as you do dreaming out my future, or you'll be of no use to me or the rest of the world.

Boy, I hope you read that a little more gently than it seems that I wrote it. Didn't mean to say it so point-blank.

This is the kind of situation I have been warning about - presenting yourself as all-compassionate can be a seriously tough role to 'manage'.

Gautama even said to only believe what you had tried and found to be true, not to believe anything that he said because he had said it. I believe the same.

Does your methodology differ from MBSR or Buddhism? If so, how?

The one that thinks he will live in my garden obviously has larger issues, his path out of these issues is living to live a normalized life, not one that is codependent on me.

Not co-dependent - lets say I have enough money, but no house, and I just want to learn from you intensively and watch the Master in action, so to speak. This is one of the most traditional tried-and-tested methods of becoming awakened in the history of humanity it seems.

You can't take what worked in one culture and stamp it on every other culture and think it will work the same.

Christian monasteries and communities - they work like this today in the West as far as I am aware....

1. All awakened are like Gandhi with an India to save or will run into trouble with leaders and will have great followings.
2. I say to the one that would live in my garden to go get his own place as his first step in awakening and you want to blanket-apply that to everyone I'd ever help.
3. They lived in Gautama's garden and that method worked for him, so it needs to be followed by anyone claiming to be awakened.
4. Certification in zen buddhism of the correct application to myself of the word "awakened".

None of these are true in the context of this thread from my perspective - there is a huge tangle here, and there isn't enough time to unravel it - hopefully it will come loose by itself as we continue to discuss things.

it feels as if there's the assumption that whatever I'm stating is coming from within MBSR, as is the entire context of this site. I haven't been on the site long, but your use of "MBSR" is the only occurrences of it that I've seen, so it doesn't seem to be a site-specific context.

I'll leave this to the Mods to manage.

On all of these points you seem to be ridgidly set and when I offer a different view, saying that the absolutism application you're making to me doesn't fit my view, you just come back with the same original absolutism view again. No "ah, now I see, you don't have an India you think you need to save". It's as if you keep trying to fit everything I say about my different viewpoint into your singular viewpoint.

I don't criticize you in pointing this out.

I think you need to be clearer about how you think I am being absolutist about you in an illogical way. You are declaring that you have reached an absolute state - free from all suffering. I'm posting to you on those premises. This whole "India to Save" thing appears to have come out of nowhere. My reference to Gandhi was one regarding people wanting to follow him and hold him up as their beloved teacher. You have created the rest - if you look back, you will see.

You mention spending a lot of time thinking "what if I become awakened?

No I haven't mentioned such a thing.

I'll need to do this and that" but the more you think about that, the less likely it is that you'll awaken. Awaken first, then figure out what you're going to do with it.

So you are saying that I think too much about what I need to do with an awakened state?

Worry about graduating first, then think about landing a job, then about what to do with the money.

So you are saying that I worry about what to do with my future 'job' as an awakened person?

You've read a lot. You've listened a lot. You've gathered a lot of information. But what have you done with it? Or rather, what have you allowed it to do with you?

I used to take refuge in thought. I would read to learn, because learning is the end itself, the reward. Thus my friends telling me the truth that I thought about things too much. I still have that trait. But knowledge for the sake of learning is no use. Literally "use". To make knowledge useful, it must be used.

If I can help you, it would be in recommending that you forget knowing for a while and live without planning.

So I read too much and learn too much, I don't practice enough, and I plan too much? Where are you getting these conclusions from? These all appear to be assumptions made during the limited time you have 'known' me.

The link to my blog is below in my signature if you want more information about my mindfulness practices. You can find my 'story' I wrote out on this forum to see where I have come from - there's no mystery involved.

All the best,

Bio.

[OmniPada]

It would be great if you could make clear how your awakening differs from that of Gautama Buddha's and tell us who this man who defines your awakened state is. Why the apparent mystery and secrecy?

I don't think my awakening differs at all from Gautama. And I don't think I've indicated that it's any different. All I've said is I prefer not the term "Buddha" in application to myself because it means something different depending on who you talk to and our culture has a different meaning of this word. I've clearly said I'm awakened, and the word "buddha" means "awakened one", so I've never indicated anything different than the experience Gautama described, at least not intentionally.

The other person who is alive that describes the same experience that I've had is Adyashanti.

This is all a bit confusing.

OK.

I care not to challenge other leaders.

Do you consider yourself a leader of sorts? What kind of leader?

I'm not interested in leadership.

Well expectations and certain certifiable traits seem to come with the territory if one is associating oneself
[...]
As I said before, I think all people have a deep subconscious awareness of what an unconditionally loving individual is and could be. It's not an expectation but a general understanding beyond concepts. It's like looking at a plant and feeling supported by it's 'aliveness', but on a human scale.

OK. Still no certificate to pass around or have filled out by someone else.

Unconditional love and true compassion could be argued to be a better drug. There's no reason why such a person wouldn't drop one drug for another. The story of Gautama Buddha meeting the murderer Angulimala spring to mind - the murderer dropped his then addiction to killing people to be ordained by the Buddha - within a very short time span.

Notice your equating addiction and ordination. Any teacher who accepts another being addicted to them is doing more harm than good in that relationship.

Just because someone thinks if I say I am awakened that now I must be their door mat doesn't mean I will be.

I think it's strange you saying that you wish to help others and have unbridled compassion but appear not willing to follow up on that statement if people come to you for help. How is a homeless guy, for example, coming to your house and asking if he can stay in your empty room for the night, using you as a "door mat"? I would assume you would be all too happy to help such an individual, right?

I've had homeless people stay in my house. One man for over 2 years.

This is different than the one who is "addicted" (using your word from above) to me and staying in my garden.

I appreciate the fact that you want to come up with all these different scenarios and see what I would do in each one of them. But I don't find it helpful. Let's move on from this line of thinking please.

You need to start getting serious about your practice and spend as much time being mindful as you do dreaming out my future, or you'll be of no use to me or the rest of the world.

Boy, I hope you read that a little more gently than it seems that I wrote it. Didn't mean to say it so point-blank.

This is the kind of situation I have been warning about - presenting yourself as all-compassionate can be a seriously tough role to 'manage'.

I indicated how you separated it from it's context. I have nothing to manage.

Gautama even said to only believe what you had tried and found to be true, not to believe anything that he said because he had said it. I believe the same.

Does your methodology differ from MBSR or Buddhism? If so, how?

I haven't studied MBSR, I'm not able to answer your question.

The one that thinks he will live in my garden obviously has larger issues, his path out of these issues is living to live a normalized life, not one that is codependent on me.

Not co-dependent - lets say I have enough money, but no house, and I just want to learn from you intensively and watch the Master in action, so to speak. This is one of the most traditional tried-and-tested methods of becoming awakened in the history of humanity it seems.

My answer doesn't change even though your scenario does. If someone thinks I'm their solution and they're going to learn from me, the first thing I'll teach them is independence and not dependence on me. They'll need to be free from the thought that they need me. Then they can learn whatever else I have to teach them.

This is turning into you coming up with different scenarios again, and as above I ask that we draw this type of discussion to a close. I don't see how it's helping you or me.

You can't take what worked in one culture and stamp it on every other culture and think it will work the same.

Christian monasteries and communities - they work like this today in the West as far as I am aware....

key phrase: "and think it will work the same". Maybe you haven't heard all the sex abuse scandals?

Again, this line of discussion isn't helping. I feel like it's just you trying to impose the way you think things should be done on my life and outlook. I'm not interested in pursuing it further. I'm not going to host a crowd of people in my garden, no matter how many scenarios you draw up or how many examples you give around the world of other people who have done so to varying forms of success or failure.

Awakened doesn't mean being a carbon copy of Gautama. I'll use different words, I'll speak a different language, I'll even say "dude" and "what up, yo?" even though he never did. I'll live in an air conditioned house, drive an air conditioned car, even fly on airplanes. I'll use different methods than him, I'm using different methods already (this forum, video, twitter, etc). Maybe everyone on my twitter feed equates to being the same as people that was in his garden, I don't know. I don't know yet how I'll teach others in the future, I only know how I'm doing it now. But I do know some ways I won't be doing it. My garden is one of them.

None of these are true in the context of this thread from my perspective - there is a huge tangle here, and there isn't enough time to unravel it - hopefully it will come loose by itself as we continue to discuss things.

I invite you to go back and look at your words. Have a friend or teacher who doesn't think like you read it over and tell you what they think.

I think you need to be clearer about how you think I am being absolutist about you in an illogical way.

I think I already did. Your response is that it's a huge tangle and you don't have time to unravel it.

Please don't feel obligated to unravel it for my sake. I'm content to leave it just as it is.

You are declaring that you have reached an absolute state - free from all suffering. I'm posting to you on those premises. This whole "India to Save" thing appears to have come out of nowhere. My reference to Gandhi was one regarding people wanting to follow him and hold him up as their beloved teacher. You have created the rest - if you look back, you will see.

there is a potential fan club scenario here - that is the 'Gandhi status' I was referring to. Someone doing what you are doing tends to become incredibly popular, sought after, seen as a threat or 'saviour' by spiritual fanatics, etc.

Seems you indicated your version of "Gandhi" was that of a "savior" to someone. And whom was it that Gandhi saved? Pretty sure just about everyone you asked would say it was India.

But if that's not what you meant, that's fine. I'm just pointing out from where I'm getting this reference.

You mention spending a lot of time thinking "what if I become awakened?

No I haven't mentioned such a thing.

I think I've been practicing mindfulness when considering the consequences of a person 'going live' with an awakened Buddha-type state in the world. I have my own visions for how I would like to help others in the world, so this is all part of seriously taking up the challenge - one can plan and predict - mindfully.

So you are saying that I think too much about what I need to do with an awakened state?

Or at least you've spent a lot of time thinking about what I need to do with an awakened state. This thread is evidence of that. You're more worried about what I'm going to do than I am. Drawing all these scenarios up, people living in my garden, some homeless guy sleeping in my house, people both angry and viewing me as a savior, people wanting to get some kind of tangible buddhaness glow from me - a lot of bizarre stuff.

So you are saying that I worry about what to do with my future 'job' as an awakened person?

I have no idea if you're worrying about your future job. I'm just noting how much you're going on and on about mine.

So I read too much and learn too much, I don't practice enough, and I plan too much? Where are you getting these conclusions from? These all appear to be assumptions made during the limited time you have 'known' me.

Just going off of the way you've treated me. The first post I make on this forum brings all these bizarre scenarios out, your mindful planning of what you'll do when you're awakened, etc. It seems that you had a lot of this stuff already thought out and you just put it down in words super-imposed on my life.

I'm happy if you tell my my impression of you is wrong. It doesn't really matter to me. I'm not here to prove who I am or who you are.

One thing is for sure. This isn't why I came to participate on this site.

I haven't gotten much, if anything, from this thread of discussion. And from all your responses it doesn't seem you have either.

I came to this site just to help, I recommend that we both return to that.

[FeeHutch]

Hi
I noticed the comments about MBSR and the site. I'm not wholly sure about the context of the comments but MBSR has and is being discussed on the site and several people have found out about mindfulness through MBSR.

I am finding much of your conversation goes over my head. Mindfulness and this site are not religious that much I do know. If you need or want clarification from the moderators please post questions etc and we will do our best

[BioSattva]

Hi Omni,

Thank you again for replying. I think we can keep things a bit briefer now we know a bit of 'background' so to speak.

The other person who is alive that describes the same experience that I've had is Adyashanti.

Interesting. Have you contacted him yet?

Still no certificate to pass around or have filled out by someone else.

Well yes there is - the criteria which certify someone as 'awakened' according to the defining properties of Gautama Buddha's awakening. At the very least one needs to be certified according to those. Any person can look up the definition and the associated qualities and certify you on a basic level. If you are a depressed heroin addict, for example, people aren't going to award you your 'certificate of awakening'. It's pretty simple, right?

Traditionally, within Zen Buddhism, for example, 'Fully Enlightened' or 'Awakened' has apparently tended to have been attributed to a humble individual by others, not by someone introducing themselves to strangers with "Awakened One' following their name, like a qualification, but as you say, you like to do things differently.

Personally, the only person I have witnessed in the flesh and in many videos, not to mention his writings, who comes close to the state of a truly awakened and enlightened being, is Thich Nhat Hanh. Comparing him to Adyashanti in videos, in terms of humility, tangible deep compassion, sensitivity, and peacefulness, I get a much deeper feeling of groundedness from TNH, personally.

Notice your equating addiction and ordination.

Addiction to committing oneself to dissolve all addictions arrives at non-addiction. It's like an uninstall program.

I've had homeless people stay in my house. One man for over 2 years.

Great!

Does your methodology differ from MBSR or Buddhism? If so, how?

I haven't studied MBSR, I'm not able to answer your question.

But you have studied Buddhism, though right? How does your methodology differ from Buddhism? This is really important because your definition of formal mindfuless practice might be completely different from the conception and definition of mindfulness used by the founders of this forum.

You speak a lot about your awakened state in amongst the instructions you give- as if there is a necessary religious foundation to mindfulness practice, when it doesn't seem to be the case. This isn't a religous forum, as far as I am aware - Fee, maybe you can back this up? Most people here do not apparently practice mindfulness to become awakened beings in a religious sense - they practice to help them deal with their stress/suffering on a potentially gradual scale. This site is broader than the idea of a bunch of people seeking an awakening.

MBSR is basically secular Zen Buddhism without Enlightenment dangled as a 'carrot-on-a-stick' so to speak. MBSR is focused on stress-reduction, and practitioners who see the change in the level of stress/suffering in themselves over time can easily extrapolate that process off into the future - mindfully .

If someone thinks I'm their solution and they're going to learn from me, the first thing I'll teach them is independence and not dependence on me.

It's baffling how someone can learn something from you without depending on you for anything - such as intructions or teachings, for example.

Seems you indicated your version of "Gandhi" was that of a "savior" to someone.

Have a look back and you'll see that the "someone" was religious fanatics. That's a very specific and minority group - not the whole of India.

I think I've been practicing mindfulness when considering the consequences of a person 'going live' with an awakened Buddha-type state in the world. I have my own visions for how I would like to help others in the world, so this is all part of seriously taking up the challenge - one can plan and predict - mindfully.

You seem to have minsintrerpreted this statement as me striving after this awakening of yours. This is not the case - I just do my mindfulness practice when I remember to.

So you are saying that I think too much about what I need to do with an awakened state?

Or at least you've spent a lot of time thinking about what I need to do with an awakened state.

Again; another assumption. It's not true from my perspective.

I haven't gotten much, if anything, from this thread of discussion.

It's a shame you want to see things that way.

And from all your responses it doesn't seem you have either.

As I said before - all of this helps me, and I enjoy interacting with others who have a different way of seeing mindfulness practice - especially you.

Thanks again,

Bio.