How can we incorporate books into the main site?

[Gareth]

Test.

[JonW]

Maybe we could start drawing up a list of categories and start making suggestions.
I agree with BioSattva that it would be good to maintain a clear secular tone overall.
I'm not a Buddhist but I have definite Zen leanings. However, I don't regard Buddhism as a religion but others would argue that it is a religion. The argument is irrelevant to me. But it may not be irrelevant to others.
Hmmmm.

[BioSattva]

Yes and it may be worth keeping the Zen Buddhism from the Other Buddhism too, since the other stuff hasn't really apparently contributed to MBSR as much.

[JonW]

I'd like to nudge this idea of a proper books section a little bit further simply by mentioning the fact that we were discussing the idea of having a proper books section.
So...can we draw up a list of categories that we're all (more or less) in agreement with?
I'm volunteering to take care of the poetry section because that's the sort of man I am.

[FeeHutch]

So are we thinking along the lines of categories like poetry, instruction books so 8 week programs that kind of thing, autobiographical accounts of mindfulness?

I am enjoying listening to Alan Watts lectures at the moment. That isn't strictly speaking mindfulness but maybe philosophical view points would fit Watts and others? JKZ could probably just have his own category of course...

And then there is the question of books rooted in various religious frameworks. My gut feeling here is that we would be limiting ourselves if we exclude books on the basis that the site is founded in Western secular mindfulness. If there is a specific area for books looking at mindfulness from a Buddhist, Christian or any other religious view point then it would be up to the individual community member if they want to join in those discussions. I think we are working from a position of not wanting religious standings confused with mindfulness practice.

I will admit I have nearly not posted this several times, feeling unsure about going back 'there' but this is my personal opinion so I will share it anyway

[JonW]

"So are we thinking along the lines of categories like poetry, instruction books so 8 week programs that kind of thing, autobiographical accounts of mindfulness?"

Yes, that's very much along the lines I was thinking.
So long, as you say, that we can avoid religious standings being confused with mindfulness practice I don't see any problem including books about Buddhism, Zen etc. Not that I regard those as religions but some do.
I've not come across any mindfulness books from a Christian standpoint, probably because prayer is at the heart of Christian practice rather than meditation.
I've been reading a lot of Alan Watts recently and I'm currently nearing the end of his autobiography. Curiously, his stance on sitting meditation is very take-it-or-leave-it. He preferred to meditate whilst out walking.

[BioSattva]

feeling unsure about going back 'there'

Lol. Indeed.

I don't see any problem including books about Buddhism, Zen etc. Not that I regard those as religions but some do.

I also used not to, but having lived in Sri Lanka and China, and having lived for a week at TNH's Zen Monastery, I have found that Buddhism and Zen are very easily interpreted as religion from both inside and outside (for example Tibetan Buddhists I've met seem to say that Zen is one of many teachings which came from within Tibetan Buddhism - difinitely a religion for those in Tibet missing their beloved Lama), and since the lure of superstition appears greater than that of philosophy for the majority, I gave up my own apparent 'minority definition' (however correct it may have been). Since the labels have been polluted, I began working on trying to pull the essence out philosophically and scientifically, as well as 'practically' with various connected demonstrable arts, and then as you know I found MBSR. I tend to ditch the B and the Z word now. And as has been discussed on this forum already - even the M word can begin to bring about certain reactions. I have seen many authors use such terms as 'truly human' to drop any weird associations, which I like but can be ambiguous.

Anyway, let's not linger anywhere near 'there' for much longer....

JKZ uses various B and Z teachings and references to support the secular stuff. As long as this site is clear about not wanting that direction to be reversed, then I don't forsee any serious problems with B and the Z references.

[JonW]

To make life easier, should we limit the books about Buddhism and Zen to those that fit within the broader remit of mindfulness? And exclude books (like Philip Kapleau's The Three Pillars Of Zen) that are more historical?
I'm reading Susan Murphy's Upside-Down Zen: Finding The Marvelous In The Ordinary at the minute and that's very mindfulness-based.
How would we like to move forward with this?
Fee has already suggested a category for those who are new to mindfulness. Maybe there should be separate categories for books that teach the 8-week course (Mark Williams, JKZ) and those that offer a more general overview - like Oli Doyle's excellent Mindfulness Plain & Simple and The Mindfulness Manifesto by Heaversedge & Halliwell.
Then maybe a category for more experienced meditators - JKZ's Coming To Our Senses would come into that category.
I like the idea of a poetry section.
Then perhaps a section called something like "Mindfulness & Beyond" where we could list the likes of the Susan Murphy book, Alan Watts etc. But nothing too heavily Zen or Buddhism-based.
All ideas warmly welcomed.
Cheers, Jon

[FeeHutch]

That sounds a really good way forward

[JonW]

Okey dokey.
I have some time free this next week so I'll make a start in terms of drawing up categories and making a few suggestions as to which books might be included.
Needless to say, everyone is welcome to get involved here.
Regarding poetry, I'm thinking that it might be more interesting to post actual poems relating to mindfulness (the shorter the better) rather than to recommend entire collections. I can think of dozens of "mindful" poems but, with the notable exception of Mary Oliver, I can't think of too many poets who might be described as mindful poets.
Which reminds me that, at school, we were taught the world's shortest poem, entitled Fleas.

Adam
Had 'em.

If anyone can find a way of relating that particular masterpiece to mindfulness, they win a prize.