Help with compulsive thinking

[PDee]

Hello everyone. I have suffered from OCD in various forms since I was 4 (seriously) starting with a tapping routine. When I was 7-8 it moved-on to a thought-based OCD being the problem.

For example, when I was playing football at school, if I scored a goal I 'had' to think-through what happened and feel as though I did when I scored. Aso, say there was a tragic news item about someone being hurt or being killed, I would 'have' to think through how I'd feel if it was my Mum, Dad and Brother and feel as if I would should it really have happened. This couldn't have been good for my wellbeing.

Annyway, here I am, 40 on various meds for OCD and anxiety. I am also in contact with MH pros, so don't worry, I will ask them about any suggestions here (usual caveats apply, not a medical forum, at my own risk, etc - no probs.). My problems now are similar. Let's say I am watching TV. There will be a line in a soap opera and I feel that I 'have' to think it through until I feel the emotion that I did when I first heard the line.

I will be reading (at the moment, The Mindful Way Workbook, a GAD book and an OCD book). I will read a passage that may be complex and/or not going in. I will then need to remember the tenor of the passage and feel as though I understood all of it. This means that even items which should provide relief can become a source of pain.

I also feel compelled to put thoughts which occur in a non-verbal form (like a memory, a scene playing-out that is randomly remembered) into verbal form. Usually I have to use certaib words and feel as though I would feel if it were really happening.

I have experimented with mindfulness in the past but without really ever jumping fully in (hence the Workbook, now. I'd recommend it, BTW). I think it could be a route out of this nonsense.

I suppose what I am asking is:

1. How do you 'normal'-thinking people know when to pursue a thought or not (whether that thought first presents as verbal, imagery or anything else)?
2. What do you 'do' with thoughts you don't pursue?
3. How can I be mindful of these urges and impulses to think if I manage to feel that a thought is not worth pursuing?

I am sorry if this is waffly and vague; I have real difficulty explaining this.

[Gareth]

Don't be sorry at all. This forum is here to answer questions like yours.

I don't really feel qualified to talk about mindfulness in relation to OCD, but I'll have a blast at answering the three questions that you posed:

1. Sometimes I get caught up in my thinking like anyone else, but I think that the regular mindfulness practice helps me to notice it sooner. I find it quite difficult to answer this question, actually; I think that it's quite an instinctive process. You have to be careful here that you are not avoiding sadness or any other emotion. Mindfulness asks that we lean into our emotions and feel them fully, whilst knowing that they will pass.

2. Let them pass; they will eventually. Unfortunately the same thoughts might be round again in another five minutes.

3. Come back to the body. How is this thought manifesting itself in your body? Is it creating tension anywhere? Can you give it a colour? How does the though feel?

I'll put the topic out to Twitter.

[PDee]

Thanks, Gareth. I honestly had no idea of a starting-point until I read this. There are some books out there which say they take a Mindfulness approach to OCD but I think they are not genuine mindfulness approaches and contradict some of the pure Mindfulness books/instructions that are around. What you have outlined in just this post above is more helpful, and certainly more straightforward, than the books I refer to here. So thanks, I am indebted.

May I ask another question? Do people without anxiety or a thoiught-based OCD also have the overwhelming urge to think things through? Or is it just that you get caught-up in automatic chatter (and as a Mindfulness practitioner, bring yoursef back to the present)? Because OCD is all I have ever known I have no comprehension of how 'normal' thought processes work.

The problem is when you say OCD, people think of hand-washing and/or 'If i dont perform this ritual something bad will happen to my family'.

But none of the people with OCD who I have known have has these 'orthodox' forms. It seems , sadly, that the experience of professional practitioners on this is behind the curve a bit. Anyway, I digress there.

Thanks again for your help!!

[JonW]

Hi PDee,
Welcome to the forum.
Have you thought about doing an 8-week mindfulness course? It can help enormously to ground yourself in the practice in this way. Numerous options are available and I'd be happy to advise. Please feel free to let me know if you would like further information.
All best,
Jon

[Matt Y]

Hi PDee,

You ask:

Do people without anxiety or a thought-based OCD also have the overwhelming urge to think things through? Or is it just that you get caught-up in automatic chatter (and as a Mindfulness practitioner, bring yourself back to the present)? Because OCD is all I have ever known I have no comprehension of how 'normal' thought processes work.

Your question really got me thinking!
To clarify, I didn't have an 'overwhelming urge' to think things through but there was certainly an urge or desire to consider your question fully.

It seems to me that there aren't really normal people, nor people with OCD. There are just people with brains that function in different ways, and sometimes brain behaviours are stigmatised or pathologised. When I read your first email I actually thought that you were describing a very thoughtful, reflective, empathetic person. Indeed, you might even say a very 'mindful' person! At the very least, you were describing desirable qualities or character traits.

I wonder: Do you consider your urge to think things through to be negative? Problematic? Disturbing? Do you see any advantages to a brain that functions in that way? What would it be like to think things through in such a way without considering it problematic?

Also, have you ever asked what emotions or physical sensations accompany such urges? How do you experience the urge/compulsion itself? Can you identify the urge? Locate it? Can it be observed? Can it be tolerated? Does it have to be acted upon?

I think the urge to think things through is part of being human, as is the tendency to get caught up in thoughts. I don't think either of these 'conditions' needs to be considered problematic. Of course, some people probably experience the urge to think things through with a greater degree of compulsion, though perhaps it isn't the urge per se, that causes the thinking, but rather, the capacity of the person to tolerate such urges without necessarily acting upon them.

I'm not sure that I've really answered your question but I hope it's provided some food for thought.
I'd certainly be interested in your response.

Matt.

[PDee]

Hi PDee,
Welcome to the forum.
Have you thought about doing an 8-week mindfulness course? It can help enormously to ground yourself in the practice in this way. Numerous options are available and I'd be happy to advise. Please feel free to let me know if you would like further information.
All best,
Jon

Hi Jon, thanks for the reply. I am doing a (self study) 8 week MBCT course via The Mindful Way Workbook. I would recommend it for beginners for giving you a solid understanding of the basics. Then I think I will 'do' The Mindful Way through Depression to elaborate on the ideas. I will then finally tackle Full Catastrophe Living and companion CDs, I think.

At some point I would like a small retreat for a day or two as well.

[PDee]

Matt Y, some really incisive Qs here, thanks for those. They got me looking for answers to increase my understanding.

1. I wonder: Do you consider your urge to think things through to be negative? Problematic? Disturbing? Do you see any advantages to a brain that functions in that way? What would it be like to think things through in such a way without considering it problematic?

It can be either - it depends. As an example, when I was at university, it meant that I felt compelled to understand everything that I read. I couldn't move on if there was a sentence that I couldn't grasp. This helped to increase my understanding, for sure. But it also meant that I was often delayed and hung-up on trying to understand things that were not that important. The same happens now with books, particularly self-help books. As a result I sometimes got lost in minutiae. I would say it is 25% beneficial and 75 % detrimental. If you offered m the choice of being without this, I would jump at it

2. Also, have you ever asked what emotions or physical sensations accompany such urges? How do you experience the urge/compulsion itself? Can you identify the urge? Locate it? Can it be observed? Can it be tolerated? Does it have to be acted upon?

I haven't until now. If I don't 'succeed' I don't feel that something bad will happen like with calssic OCD. It's more...Disappointment that I couldn't think things through 'properly'. Physical symptoms don't present much apart from a feeling that there is a knot in my forehead.

I would describe the compulsive feeling like this: when you were a kid, say you saw a revolving door. You felt the urge to play a 'game' where you ried to 'beat' the door and get in and through it before the revolution of the door shuts the entrance for a brief moment - it feels like that. But a really overwhelming 'that'.

3. I think the urge to think things through is part of being human, as is the tendency to get caught up in thoughts. I don't think either of these 'conditions' needs to be considered problematic. Of course, some people probably experience the urge to think things through with a greater degree of compulsion, though perhaps it isn't the urge per se, that causes the thinking, but rather, the capacity of the person to tolerate such urges without necessarily acting upon them.

I agree with the overall premise, it's not problematic per se. But because it causes me distress and leads to me to waste probably hours each day, for me it is a problem. So DO 'normal' people get the urge to think things through that don't matter, like (I don't know) the history of a soap opera character (as sometimes happens)? And what do they DO with such urges? Gareth outlined, above, the mindful approach to this but how do non-mindfulness-trained people do this?

Thnks for your Qs, they have helped to refine my understanding. Even though this has pretty-much been lifelong I still find it very difficult to articulate.

[Matt Y]

PDee, thanks for your detailed response. Although it may not feel like it, I think you've articulated yourself very well.
I can certainly see how the compulsion to understand before moving on could be frustrating. I recognise that tendency in myself.
I like to 'know' something perfectly before moving on to the next lesson. This definitely can hold me back.
I think it reflects a couple of things. Firstly, the desire for perfection; holding myself to very (unreasonably) high standards.
It also may reflect a misunderstanding of how learning and growth occur: which is usually not in a linear fashion, but rather in fits and starts.

I can't really speak for 'normal' people, or indeed, anyone else. However, I see this urge to think things through reflected in the many people who spend a lot of time worrying. I've found it helpful to consider the worry in a positive light, even if it's somewhat debilitating. The worry, or rumination, is not there to disturb us, but to keep us informed. It can be helpful to see the thinking as the tip of the iceberg. Beneath the surface are various feelings; the emotional currents which we may not be quite so aware. We may have to learn how to recognise, communicate with and process these underlying emotions. And these might be new and unfamiliar skills. Working with emotions, for example, is as much a physical as a mental or cognitive skill.

A mindful approach might include the conscious recognition of these ideas. For example, when I feel compelled to review or perfect a lesson, rather than move on, I might remind and reassure myself that learning will still occur (and perhaps more readily). I might also check to see that some subtle fear is not holding me back. I could thank the fear for offering its perspective but choose to act in a more conscious fashion.

I'm not sure that I've answered your question, but perhaps there's some more food for thought there.

[PDee]

Hello Matt sorry for the late reply. I have had a bad few OCD days.

I know where you are coming from with your 'need to know' when reading/learning. I don't know if you have ever thought of it as this but I consider it as part of my OCD. I think it certainly has compulsive elements, for me.

I find this passage to be helpful and interesting:

"I can't really speak for 'normal' people, or indeed, anyone else. However, I see this urge to think things through reflected in the many people who spend a lot of time worrying. I've found it helpful to consider the worry in a positive light, even if it's somewhat debilitating. The worry, or rumination, is not there to disturb us, but to keep us informed. It can be helpful to see the thinking as the tip of the iceberg. Beneath the surface are various feelings; the emotional currents which we may not be quite so aware. We may have to learn how to recognise, communicate with and process these underlying emotions. And these might be new and unfamiliar skills. Working with emotions, for example, is as much a physical as a mental or cognitive skill.

A mindful approach might include the conscious recognition of these ideas. For example, when I feel compelled to review or perfect a lesson, rather than move on, I might remind and reassure myself that learning will still occur (and perhaps more readily). I might also check to see that some subtle fear is not holding me back. I could thank the fear for offering its perspective but choose to act in a more conscious fashion."

So what do you DO when you feel compelled to think and how do you decide whether to pursue the thinking or not? What processes, mindfulness-based and others, which helps you decide?

I think this compulsive thinking is perfectionism-based as well, isn't it? We just HAVE to know and understand everything! Mine also comes with added OCD, has to be the right order, emphasis on right syllable, feeing 'right' after it.

Thanks again for your thoughts and advice.

[JonW]

Hi PDee,
The answer, I suspect, is to establish a well-grounded practice, including a variety of weekly meditations (sitting, body scans, mindful movement, walking meditations). 45 minutes a day would be a decent aim.
Jon