True self

[Spikeycloud]

This is a thing that I’m wondering for some time now. If we are not our thoughts and perceptions what is the real self then? There must be a self beyond that chooses to do mindfulness, that chooses to redirect his/her attention and decided to go to the gym beyond the thoughts..Some say that the real self is true love but I find it hard see that in myself.

Any idea’s?

[JonW]

There's two ways of answering that.

'We are not our thoughts' doesn't mean that thoughts are not happening. Only that we don't need to be defined by our thoughts.
Thoughts happen just as blood circulates, the heart beats, digestion happens, the breath comes and goes etc. But we mistake our thoughts for reality. If we pay attention, we might notice that we don't even choose our thoughts. They just happen.
Some would argue that the real self is our consciousness. Some prefer the word 'awareness'. If you are able to be aware of your thoughts, then you cannot also BE your thoughts.
This fits in rather well with mindfulness, as I see it.

The second way of answering it is to take the view that there is no fixed self. Nothing about us is fixed. Everything is constantly changing. Including our bodies. Yet, with the help of memory, we hold together a fixed sense of self. It's pretty useful when you are introducing yourself to people at a party. But, in the truest sense, the self is a fiction.
If this line of enquiry is of interest to you, I would highly recommend the books of Darryl Bailey, Joan Tollifson, Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, David Carse, Alan Watts and, to some extent, Eckhart Tolle. All these writers, in different ways, explore the true nature of self and the idea that we are not the doer, we are the done. The idea also looms large in The Bhagavad Gita and The Upanishads. And, of course, the Buddhist scriptures.
This view is not strictly mindfulness and falls out of the remit of this site. But I thought I'd best mention it. It falls under the category of non-duality or Advaita. I've simplified it here, for obvious reasons.

All best wishes,
Jon

[Spikeycloud]

Hi Jon,

The reason I asked is because it feels to me (could be my limited perception) we don’t have much control on ourselves – and seeing that the self is the only thing we can change in this universe...

I have a lot of patterns and fears that don’t serve me nor other people. It really feels that they are close to impossible to change sometimes – and I’m also identified with those negative patterns very often. It seems to me when you are identified with your thoughts, you have no control over them or yourself or even worse.... you are not really there. And this is for me still very hard to accept. Also accepting sometimes feel very passive to me.

If I'm not mistaken minfulness is the first step to get out of those patterns that don't serve - and after that you need to take action to really change things in your life correct?

[JonW]

Another way of looking at it is that mindfulness teaches us to hold our experience in awareness. Becoming aware of our deeply-held habitual patterns is the first step towards undoing those patterns.
A good example of this is the habit of smoking. If I'm teaching someone who wants to give up smoking, I would encourage them to notice the urge to smoke when it arises and be curious about it, rather than submitting to it.
It's all about cultivating awareness.
Of course, some patterns take a lot longer to undo than others. But noticing them for what they are is the crucial first step.
Cheers,
Jon

[Spikeycloud]

Another way of looking at it is that mindfulness teaches us to hold our experience in awareness. Becoming aware of our deeply-held habitual patterns is the first step towards undoing those patterns.
A good example of this is the habit of smoking. If I'm teaching someone who wants to give up smoking, I would encourage them to notice the urge to smoke when it arises and be curious about it, rather than submitting to it.
It's all about cultivating awareness.
Of course, some patterns take a lot longer to undo than others. But noticing them for what they are is the crucial first step.
Cheers,
Jon

Ok I understand! But here is the thing. If you meditate and you observe your thoughts - isn't "oh I observed a though" a thought in itself - and thus meaning you are in thoughts again? And seeing thoughts come in without us choosing so (like clouds) and being identified with those feels like us it feels like me I'm not real and that I'm kinda a movie that is playing before me. Unless there is a real me behind those thoughts that can choose to do thing differently. But if that is the case how can that me not be there when in those thoughts - and why can't I choose being me then.

This whole concept is extremely confusing and scary to me because it feels like I don't have control to change my negative thinking. This is very annoying because I know a lot of my thoughts are incorrect and don't serve or other people at all. Still I'm identified with them most of the time - without having a feeling that I can change it. And this is a problem I'm thinking about this a lot during the day and I think I need to break this pattern somehow - and to be honest I don't think that mindfulness alone can fix that. And every time I say I think who is thinking there lol.

Can you understand why this is very confusing for me haha. I just want to have some peace in my mind and feel free. But I feel the complete opposite to be honest.

[JonW]

'If you meditate and you observe your thoughts - isn't "oh I observed a though" a thought in itself - and thus meaning you are in thoughts again?'

Not necessarily. If I notice a cloud in the sky, I can notice it without thinking about it. I am simply observing. I don't need to compare it to other clouds I have seen, or wish the cloud was a different shape, or start thinking that it's quite a dark cloud so it might rain later (although that thought could turn out useful if I get caught in a downpour without an umbrella).
There's just the noticing.

'And seeing thoughts come in without us choosing so (like clouds) and being identified with those feels like us it feels like me I'm not real and that I'm kinda a movie that is playing before me.'

One of the reasons that mindfulness practice focusses on our thoughts is that it cultivates an awareness of our thinking patterns. The average person has something like 76,500 thoughts per day. That's a lot of thinking.
We come to realise that some thoughts are useful and some are destructive/pointless etc. Within that, there’s a choice – we are giving ourself more options and, as a result, the chance to act more skilfully.
We will choose to act on some thoughts such as making a meeting on time. Other thoughts (ruminations on the past, dark-hued speculations about the future) we might choose to see purely as thoughts and watch them dissolve, as it were, using the mindfulness skills we have learned.
It’s worth asking oneself how many of our daily thoughts are actually of any real use.
In any case, there’s always a choice and the choice comes at the moment of awareness when we become aware of our thought stream at that moment. The choice comes in the space that we create between the thought and our response to it.

'This is very annoying because I know a lot of my thoughts are incorrect and don't serve or other people at all.'

No thoughts are incorrect. They're just thoughts. They can be useful or otherwise. But never incorrect. Unless the thought is something like 2+2=5. But that's more a factual inaccuracy.

'This whole concept is extremely confusing and scary to me because it feels like I don't have control to change my negative thinking.'

But this isn't about trying to stop negative thinking or about turning negative thoughts into positive thoughts. It's about paying attention to our experience in the present moment - pleasant, unpleasant and everything in between. This has nothing to do with control. It's about showing up in our lives with an open-hearted awareness.
Again, a structured approach helps. How are you getting on with the body scan?

Best wishes,
Jon

[Spikeycloud]

Thanks for your post need to read that from time to time to make it stick

The bodyscan goes well. I already doubled the time meditating but it is still very hard to keep at it. My mind is constantly like boring, I want to do something else, this doesn't work, how long does it take? etc. I can however focus on my body parts pretty well. I can really feel them tingling so that is good. However in real life my mind and focus is al over the place,

Oh yeah those negative thoughts don't seem to dissolve with me. But maybe that's because I'm still resisting them unconsciously. For me I don't see the thoughts as clouds very often. I littarly become the thought and at that moment I'm not aware that I'm thinking only have a few seconds later.

[JonW]

This stuff is a lifetime's work, Spikey. Mindfulness keeps its own hours. But it's worth it.
Do you like in the UK? If so, I'd be happy to chat with you sometime. If that takes your fancy, let me know and I'll ping you my number.
Cheers,
Jon

[Spikeycloud]

This stuff is a lifetime's work, Spikey. Mindfulness keeps its own hours. But it's worth it.
Do you like in the UK? If so, I'd be happy to chat with you sometime. If that takes your fancy, let me know and I'll ping you my number.
Cheers,
Jon

No I live in the Netherlands. A chat is possible eventually but for now I want to do it at the boards haha. I have some more to tell but I will post that some later this day.

[JonW]

Sure thing, feller.