Some questions....

[Sensi]

Hi All

I have some questions that, though I’ve searched a lot, inside and out, the answers seem to elude me.

I usually use the breath as my anchor and am easily aware of it, although of course I drift off in thought, which I’m OK with. I label it as thinking and come back to the breath. It’s hard to explain, but often I’m aware of my breath, my focus is there, yet I’m also aware of a stream of thoughts running in the background at the same time, like it’s underneath the primary focus of my breath. I can’t say exactly what the thoughts are, but somehow know there is thinking going on. I wonder if I should try to ‘’see’’ what these thoughts are (I suppose to analyse them) or do you think it’s OK to let it be.

Also I journal a lot, almost everyday. The journaling is a self-inquiry for me. I question, (ei: who am i) myself, or dig to look at issues I’m having, but, I hope, with self-awareness and self-reflection. So when meditating and realizing I’m thinking, the advice is to let the thought go and go back to the breath, but somehow it feels like I’m avoiding, repressing, or not wanting to deal with the thought. I struggle with these seemingly opposed ideas. Any advise, thoughts?

Lastly, the issue of sitting with an emotion, or feeling (or thought?) is often mentioned. Just be with it. I have a hard time seeing the difference between that and ruminating or the sometimes circular thinking that happens. Again, it’s hard for me to discern the difference.

Thanks much in advance for any input.

Sensi

[mike]

Hi Sensi, that is a great question. I am not one of the hosts and am very much a meditating beginner. As I read your post, one thought came to mind that may or may not be helpful. I have experienced exactly what you are talking about. However, I also think that there is a difference between ruminating about something and "being" with it. To me, ruminating about something is sort of focusing on all the bad things that might happen or have already happened and living out something in my head that simply is not real in the present moment. On the other hand, being with a problem or challenge or difficulty is more about observing what I like to call my SET point as I give attention to this issue. S = Sensations, what is my body experiencing? E = Emotions, how am I feeling right now about this?, and T = Thoughts, what are my thoughts concerning this issue? At times, I think the context of meditation can be helpful to gain significant insight into an personal issue. And certainly if you seem to be merely entertaining doomsday possibilities, then It may be time to return to the breath and the perfection of the present moment.
That's kinda how I see it at this time...however, I look forward to reading a response from a more experienced meditator than I.

mike

[Peter]

Hi Sensi,
In addition to the good points Mike has made, I'd like to add..

I usually use the breath as my anchor and am easily aware of it, although of course I drift off in thought, which I’m OK with. I label it as thinking and come back to the breath. It’s hard to explain, but often I’m aware of my breath, my focus is there, yet I’m also aware of a stream of thoughts running in the background at the same time, like it’s underneath the primary focus of my breath. I can’t say exactly what the thoughts are, but somehow know there is thinking going on. I wonder if I should try to ‘’see’’ what these thoughts are (I suppose to analyse them) or do you think it’s OK to let it be.

I'd advice you for now to focus a little more on the breath, so there's no thinking going on at the same time.

Also I journal a lot, almost everyday. The journaling is a self-inquiry for me. I question, (ei: who am i) myself, or dig to look at issues I’m having, but, I hope, with self-awareness and self-reflection. So when meditating and realizing I’m thinking, the advice is to let the thought go and go back to the breath, but somehow it feels like I’m avoiding, repressing, or not wanting to deal with the thought. I struggle with these seemingly opposed ideas. Any advise, thoughts?

I don't really understand the connection between the journaling, and the question about thoughts. Could you please clarify?

Lastly, the issue of sitting with an emotion, or feeling (or thought?) is often mentioned. Just be with it. I have a hard time seeing the difference between that and ruminating or the sometimes circular thinking that happens. Again, it’s hard for me to discern the difference.

Being with it, is just observing it, not adding anything to it. Don't analyse, don't think about it as good or bad. Don't think about it at all, really. Just experience it, be aware of it, and leave it alone.

Have a great evening.
Peter

[Sensi]

Also I journal a lot, almost everyday. The journaling is a self-inquiry for me. I question, (ei: who am i) myself, or dig to look at issues I’m having, but, I hope, with self-awareness and self-reflection. So when meditating and realizing I’m thinking, the advice is to let the thought go and go back to the breath, but somehow it feels like I’m avoiding, repressing, or not wanting to deal with the thought. I struggle with these seemingly opposed ideas. Any advise, thoughts?

I don't really understand the connection between the journaling, and the question about thoughts. Could you please clarify?

Hi Peter

Let me see if I can clarify. For instance, while meditating I understand it should go like this: I'm focused on the breath, then a thought comes up: I'm mad at XX for what he did last night. So ideally, I'll realize I'm thinking this, let it go and come back to focus on my breathing.

If I were to journal, I would take this thought and write about it. Question myself; what impact does my anger have on me, is it really true, could it be that my anger is about something else, and the situation triggered it. Do you see, I would journal about me feelings, thoughts, and emotions about the thought.

So my point was that sometimes with regards to meditation I feel that the advice to let the thought go when you realize you have it and return to the breath feels like avoiding the thought, or repressing it.

This is where some of the confusion gets created for me. Hope this helps.

Thanks again
Sensi

[Peter]

Thanks for clarifying, Sensi.
The danger of journaling like you do, might be that one also tries to analyze these thoughts a bit while they are happening. Furthermore, one becomes more invested in these thoughts. Both these things make it harder to just observe the thoughts.
The idea is to 'feel' the thoughts, as it were, rather than thinking about/analyzing them. I wouldn't journal (at least for a while) if I were you.
Hope this makes sensi ,
Peter

[Sensi]

Thanks for the feedback Peter

I'm a little torn with regards to your answer. I've journaled for years and feel it has helped me alot ''see'' things in a different perspective, namely that my thoughts aren't always true. Intuitively journaling seems, for me, to be meditation in writing if you will.

However your answer does makes sense in the perspective that there is some analysis going on when I journal, and perhaps a sense being more invested in the thoughts. I can't say for sure to be quite honest.

It's like journaling helps me become aware of thoughts than run through my mind, not necessarily believing in them though...maybe I confuse thinking and awareness...

I am aware of different kinds of thinking; the sort of weird thinking that comes without, it seems, any intention on my part. You know the ones that go from A to Z....and you wonder how you got to thinking about it. Those I would agree that you need to let them go and return to the breath when meditating. But then there are different thoughts for me. Like I become aware that I'm feeling mad for instance. In this instance while meditating, would you take the time to ''feel, or look'' into this awareness, sensing maybe where it is in the body, or how it appeared. This is where my confusion lies. It seems to me that the some forms of meditations say leave it be and return to the breath while other forms will say, stay with it and explore.

I hope I'm making myself clear, it's hard to communicate these things clearly.

In any case, I appreciate your taking the time to answer, and look forward truly to learning more about meditation.

Best

Sensi

[DJLSFC]

Hi Sensi, the last sentence of your last post regarding your confusion, think the reason that it seems that some mediation's say go back to your breath and some forms say stay with it and explore is that these two types of mindfulness practices exist. The majority of practices I have experience of suggest either labeling thoughts and returning to breath or acknowledging thoughts, maybe see how they affect body sensations and then return to breath. There are others, which I have mentioned in other threads, that I struggle with such as working with fear or sadness, where you deliberately bring to mind anxious or sad thoughts, stay with them and then go back to the sensations they cause in the body and repeat. Some even go further to really crank up, intensify and prolong these anxious thoughts to really kick off some body sensations to observe, and then ask you to try and intensify the body sensations !! I guess the end result is the same as all the practices.

I am not aware of any tho that suggest thoughts are anything more than just thoughts and need dealing with.

Any thoughts that require dealing with I guess could maybe fall more into the realm of the doing mode.

Hope I make sense

Thanks. Dave.

[Peter]

Hi Sensi,

I understand that it is very confusing. I hope I can clarify some of it for you.

Intuitively journaling seems, for me, to be meditation in writing if you will.

I honestly don't think it is like meditation. This journaling makes one activate the analytical part of the brain. This is the opposite of what mindfulness tries to accomplish. This journaling is something one might use in traditional psychotherapy.

maybe I confuse thinking and awareness

I think you might.

the sort of weird thinking that comes without, it seems, any intention on my part. You know the ones that go from A to Z....and you wonder how you got to thinking about it. Those I would agree that you need to let them go and return to the breath when meditating.

This is often referred to as the 'monkey mind'.

But then there are different thoughts for me. Like I become aware that I'm feeling mad for instance.

This isn't so much another way of thinking. It's more the attention you give to it that makes the difference. The 'monkey mind' hands out all sorts of stuff. The stuff you find unimportant, you give little attention, but the stuff you do find important, you give a lot of attention. However, the stuff you find important isn't necessarily really more important, it's just your fears etc that make it seem that way. There is real power in just acknowledging these thoughts (the 'important' ones as well), and not adding anything to it. Not analyzing them. By doing this you're learning yourself that the 'important' stuff maybe isn't that important (you see the BS of them without analyzing). And in time, these thoughts will trigger less, and less responses.

In this instance while meditating, would you take the time to ''feel, or look'' into this awareness, sensing maybe where it is in the body, or how it appeared. This is where my confusion lies. It seems to me that the some forms of meditations say leave it be and return to the breath while other forms will say, stay with it and explore.

'Explore' doesn't mean analyze it. It's meant more like, try to reach into the far corners of your mind and body, search, maybe try new stuff, and see how the body and mind react.

Note that 'all people' know that it makes no sense to have regrets, that it makes no sense to keep thinking about stuff they cannot change etc, still they have those feelings and thoughts, and let them drag them down. They can analyze all they want, it doesn't help them at all in this regard.

The power of mindfulness lies in the NOT analyzing, it lies in the observing, letting things come, be, and go, without 'touching' it, without adding anything to it. This changes your whole perception, and therein lies the power.

The thing you might find confusing, is the difference between grounding and being with thoughts/feelings. When your mind is pulling you in strongly, it helps to 'ground' oneself. This is the constant returning to the breath. Briefly acknowledging a thought/feeling and focus on the breath again. This is a bit of a forced process. Which is meant as a way to calm the mind, and to get one into the present. When the mind is calm it is much easier to just observe things as they are; being with them as it were. Some meditations do nothing else then returning to the breath. It's like Dave said, they are just different meditations.

Maybe you could just try to stop journaling for a little while, see how it goes.

Peter

[Gareth]

I think it's important to understand the distinction between formal meditation and general awareness.

A traditional mindfulness meditation asks that when you acknowledge the thinking, you return to your object of focus (usually the breath.) The meditation is what helps to bring about greater awareness in our lives generally.

If you notice a thought in daily life, there is nothing to stop you questioning the genesis of that thought if you so wish. I'd even argue that if it is a recurring thought, it's generally in your best interests to investigate why it's recurring. That said, some thoughts seem to be beyond explanation.

Personally, I don't think that practising mindfulness precludes you from journalling. But like Peter says: journalling is not mindfulness meditation.

[Sensi]

Gentlemen,

Thank you ALL for the excellent posts. I'm going to review them in detail, but you've all given me great info, and I want to take the time to review them carefully.

I just may try leaving the journaling for a bit, to see what happens.

It's so nice to get different view points.

Thanks again

Sensi