Guided meditation vs. Non-guided meditation

[Maureen]

I have been practising mindfulness meditation for about four months. At first I was just trying on my own, trying to focus on my breathing and returning to the breath when I became distracted. More recently I have been doing a guided meditation. It is from a CD I got by Jon Kabat-Zinn. In this meditation which lasts 30 minutes, it starts with focusing on breathing, then expanding the awareness to include the body as a whole, then focusing on hearing, and finally trying to focus on the thoughts as they arise. I have a couple questions about this. I rather like the guided meditation because it gives me something to follow which I find easier to do than say just spending 30 minutes trying to focus on my breathing, but I wonder if it would be better- I'm not even sure what I mean by better- to do the unguided meditation. Maybe I mean it would be more like real meditation. Obviously I am a worrier which is why I decided to try this meditation in the first place. Should I be trying to transition away from the guided meditation to the unguided? My other question has to do with the part of the guided meditation where one is supposed to observe thoughts. It says not to follow the thoughts, just to observe them. I'm not exactly sure what this means. You spend 25 minutes trying not to have thoughts and then you are supposed to have them. At first I find I can't have any thoughts or like I am forcing thoughts. Then I feel like I don't really know what it means to just observe the thinking as opposed to getting caught up in the thought stream. I find myself worrying about this- thinking that maybe I am getting ahead of myself and that I should just stick with observing my breathing. I guess it's difficult for me because I tend to be goal-oriented so I think/ wonder what my goal should be in this. To be able to observe my thoughts? To be able to just "be" without focusing on anything? Can anyone give me some guidance?

[JonW]

Hi Maureen,
Welcome to Everyday Mindfulness.
There's a couple of misconceptions here but don't worry about that. They are not uncommon in the early stages of mindfulness practice.
In mindfulness practice we are not attempting to stop thoughts. Thoughts are not the problem. How we relate to thoughts can be problematic though.
Then you ask what the goal should be. There's not really a goal. Mindfulness is not a goal-oriented practice. It's not really about getting anywhere. It's about being right here, right now, with non-judgemental awareness.
I look at the CDs in a similar way to stabilisers on bicycles, which we use when we are learning to ride, then discard when we are confident enough to proceed on our own.
You might want to do a little reading around the subject to get a firmer grounding. Any of Jon Kabat-Zinn's books are highly recommended, along with Finding Peace In A Frantic World by Mark Williams and Danny Penman.
The Finding Peace book takes you through an 8-week course which might just provide you with the structure you need at this stage.
In the meantime, please feel free to ask any questions that arise here on the forum. We're always happy to help whenever we can.
Best wishes,
Jon

[Peter]

Hi Maureen,

Welcome to the forum. I like to compliment you on clarity of your questions. You might not know it, but you've just proved that you've some real insight, and are very aware of yourself. Which is what it is all about. If you just continue with what you're doing things get clearer and clearer.

About the guided meditations. I'd say, just do what you feel like. There is no wrong or right way. When I do a body scan (which I love), I often do it guided because it is easier to keep track on where I am (with an mp3 I've created myself; that just enumerates the body parts with silence in between). Guided meditations can become a distraction. At some point you probably don't like that anymore.

About watching your thoughts. A lot of people have problems with that. I myself had them too. You have to realize that when you are very aware or are really focusing, there won't be any thoughs. The mind stops making up thoughts in such a state. It is only when you let your awareness relax just a enough, that you can observe your thoughts.

About the goal part: The only mindfulness goal you should have is to keep practicing (don't think about what that practice should be ; just invest time) examining, noticing, and to let things be as they are.

I really think you're on the right path, though. Just continue!

Peter

[JonW]

"You have to realize that when you are very aware or are really focusing, there won't be any thoughts."

I must gently disagree with this. The average person apparently has 76,500 thoughts a day. Some of those thoughts are very useful ("I have a dental appointment at 11.30 so I should prepare to get ready now") but they're not the problematic ones. It's the habitual loop of negative, judgmental thinking and the rumination/worry that can be a problem. But we don't attempt to stop those thoughts. We learn to simply notice them. Even when we are aware or completely focussed, thoughts still arise. The thoughts only have power over us if we grant them that power. With practice, we learn to see thoughts purely as thoughts. "Mere secretions of the mind", as Jon Kabat-Zinn says. Let them be.
Cheers,
Jon, Hove

[Peter]

Hi Jon, you might have misunderstood me. I'm not saying that one should stop their thinking. Quite the opposite. One really should notice and examine your thoughts.

I'm just saying that for me and a lot of people spontaneous thoughs do not form when one is very focused-aware. It can prevent a lot of frustration when one is aware of that.

Peter

[JonW]

Thanks for clarifying, Peter.
I think this area is one that causes a lot of confusion, especially in the early days of practice. If people buy into the idea that meditation can lead to a stillness of mind, then meditation can very easily become yet another form of striving. Stillness of mind can be a most welcome by-product of meditation but the moment we turn that into a goal we seem to come unstuck.
So much of this is counter-intuitive, of course.
You say, "The only mindfulness goal you should have is to keep practicing (don't think about what that practice should be ; just invest time) examining, noticing, and to let things be as they are." I couldn't agree more.
Cheers,
Jon

[Peter]

Thanks Jon!

I agree, it can be very confusing. Maybe it will help someone if I try to clarify some things.

Jon Kabat-Zinn says "Focus on your breathing like your life depends on it because it really does". While others say that you shouldn't try too hard. Adyashanti says "Put in just enough effort, not too much, not to little." Eckhart Tolle says "As long as you are in a state of intense awareness, you are free of thoughts. You are still, but at the same time very alert. Once your awareness drops under a certain level, the thoughts return. The mental noise returns, the silence is gone."

Some of it might seem contradictory, but one needs to realize that they are speaking of different things here. Jon Kabat-Zinn is talking about grounding oneself, not about awareness or meditation. Grounding is basically getting yourself out of your head, and into 'the now'. If one is sufficiently grounded, it is time to explore. If one wants to investigate oneself in awareness (especially thoughts), one needs to be focused just enough to make it possible to let things sprout and to also be aware of that. If one tries too hard to, there won't arise anything, if one tries to little, one isn't aware enough to notice it. This is something you'll learn (falls into place, really) over time.

One should also realize and accept that no day (moment) is the same. You shouldn't expect anything. One day it might be very easy to become aware, another day it might be very difficult (or even impossible). Some days you might be too focused, so you don't get a broader sense of awareness. Some days you might be too broadly aware, and you don't get the details. In short: Some days it is like this, some days it is like that. It is all fine, just try to notice it, and let things be. What can help in this regard, is to frequently change perspective. Like Mark Williams says: "Sometimes zooming in, sometimes zooming out.". Don't get caught up in anything.

If you investigate your thoughts, all sort of interesting things become clear after a while (don't rationalize it, it falls into place automatically). How it just randomly creates thoughts, trying to 'catch' your attention. How sometimes the pull can be very strong, and sometimes it is very weak. How you have an ego that drives a lot of those thoughts for self preservation. How almost all of your thoughts are about the past or the future, in stead of the 'now'. etc. There is no right or wrong here. It is how it is. It is how you 'work'. Just notice it!

After a while you begin to notice these things as they are happening in 'real life', and you can react like you want to. For instance: Someone has said something that offended you. You notice how your ego gets offended, and wants to defend itself. It tries to seek recognition. You feel the adrenaline in your body. It might be that the other person said nothing wrong really, but your ego just feels threatened. Before mindfulness, you would have just reacted agitated, but because of mindfulness you are now able to choose your reaction.

I need to stop, because I get carried away here..

Peter

[JonW]

No, carry on, please.
This is excellent stuff.
Jon

[Peter]

Thanks Jon,

Just a little bit more then..

The ego may be the main thing that keeps one from being aware.

It wants to preserve and defend itself, so it constantly tries to learn from the past and strategize the future. To do this, it pulls you into thoughts about the past and the future, and out of the now. The ego believes in the stories it creates. To the ego these stories are the truth.

To be able to be more present you have to keep the ego as insignificant as possible. Recognize when the ego is trying to build itself up, or tries to preserve or defend itself. When you are aware of it, the ego cannot use it anymore.

It builds itself up by criticizing things or others, but also by being proud (gloating), iterating over something over and over again in your mind because it makes you feel good. This is often regarded as positive, but it builds up your ego which makes it defend itself harder, because it's got more to lose.

Being proud of stuff, or achievements in relation to others is an ego-thing. However being proud of yourself FOR yourself. That's not the ego, but love and kindness toward yourself.

That's it for now.. My wife is calling me. She wants to go to Ikea

Peter

[MiM]

I believe I might have had some similar experiences to what you describe, Maureen.

In the beginning of my meditation practice, I got a bit worried and then quite frustrated, when people kept saying that "everyone experience lots of thoughts...". When I was meditating, I could sit for quite long times with a completely empty head. It felt a bit like my head was a dark and empty cave, where nothing happened at all. Obviously that wasn't my only experience and soon I learned to accept that part of my meditation, as well as the parts when my mind is more active, as being a natural part of my experience.

So I believe it is quite ok to meditate either with an empty or busy mind. For me there is also a clear difference in "to just observe the thinking as opposed to getting caught up in the thought stream". When I am caught in the thought stream, I forget to observe my thoughts and might even forget I am meditating, for a while. When I am observing my thoughts, I have a constant conscious process doing just that. Can you find a similar difference, Maureen?