Seeking help

[Daisy]

Hi there, I'm new to this forum and hoping for some feedback! I've been practising mindfulness on and off (mostly off) for years, read lots about it etc but never studied under a teacher as such. I have most of my life experienced anxiety..seems to come in waves of intensity, and when it's 'bad' it seems to generate negative and depressive thinking. I know intellectually that the thoughts are transitory and I do try not to get too hooked into them - sometimes it's not so easy! Anyway, after a bit of a blip with life stress/overwork a few months ago, I decided once and for all to commit myself to a regular daily practice of mindfulness meditation 15 mins a day, nothing huge, to see what happens with my general mood/anxiety. It was going well, 2/3 weeks in, but the past few days it feels almost as though there's some anxious and negative thoughts rising to the surface an awful lot, like when you stir a pond and the bubbles rise to the surface. I don't like it!! I'm feeling generally quite anxious a lot of the time now. And it's not what I expected. Immediately after meditating I feel tremendously calm but overall I honestly feel that I am becoming more and more aware of my negative thought patterns and it is wearing me down. I have a tendency to ruminate, and have been swamping myself with talks and books on meditation....possible overkill? I don't mean to rabbit on and on, but it is helping me to offload On the one hand, I can see that it may be a very wise thing for one to become so aware of the thought process, but for people who are very prone to anxiety and depression, might there be a bit of a danger of bringing too much to the surface? I hope someone can offer to shine some light on this - thanks in advance.

[JonW]

Hi Daisy,
Welcome to the forum. Good to have you on board.
You ask if there's a danger of bringing too much to the surface through meditation, particularly if one is prone to anxiety and depression. I'd say there is a risk of that. It can get harder before it gets easier.
For that reason but not only for that reason I'd usually recommend that someone gets a proper grounding in mindfulness through the 8-week course, preferably with a recommended teacher.
If a course with a teacher is not a viable option, the best alternative (in my opinion) would be to follow the course via a book. The one I always recommend is Finding Peace In A Frantic World by Mark Williams and Danny Penman. That's easily available from Amazon and other outlets.
I'm a big believer in the course and the way it provides a firm structure for practice. That said, there are members of this forum who have a flourishing practice and never followed the course.
I just think, in the light of what you said in your post, that it might be worth thinking about.
In the meantime, please feel free to make yourself at home here on the forum and ask any questions you like. We're a friendly bunch and we always do our best to help and/or advise.
All good things,
Jon, Hove

[Daisy]

Hi JonW thanks so much for your reply. I really appreciate it. Looking through some of the other posts on the forum, I can see that I'm not alone - apologies if I have repeated a popular topic! It seems logical in a way that thoughts, either hidden or surface, become much more vivid as awareness grows through practicing mindfulness. To be honest before I found this site I Googled the issue and read some quite alarming stuff (as you do when you Google things!) - depressed and anxious people trying out meditation, only to find that their symptoms worsen. This is quite concerning in a way, and I think should be flagged up more in general. As you say, the safest and most effective way to embark upon a Mindfulness course is under the instruction of a highly qualified teacher...or at least using one of the reputable books. Particularly now that Mindfulness is growing arms and legs so fast in our culture!

Funnily enough, I already have the book you suggested on my Kindle .. one of many in my vast library of self help books I read some of it last night whist feeling particularly shaky and it's actually really good. Thanks for the recommendation. After a good nights sleep my thinking now is this.... a totally one size fits all approach isn't the way to go. Each of us have our own stories and histories, conditions, strengths and vulnerabilities and I think the key is self awareness (some people might need a lot of help with that). I would like to get to the stage where I can weave my own way through the process of a mindfulness practice - scanning the book last night I saw that there are various 'flavours' of meditation...visualization, loving kindness etc (can't remember offhand) i.e. perhaps I should alter my approach, and rethink things a bit. I'm not ready to give up yet! Certainly when in the throws of an anxiety attack, I can actually feel a shift happening - the concept of the watcher looking down at the drama from above is becoming very noticable!!

I hope some of this makes sense. It really helps to clarify my thoughts by writing. Thanks so much again Jon.

[JonW]

My pleasure, Daisy.
My own story is that I came to mindfulness three years ago when I'd just about resigned myself to a life of chronic anxiety and depression. I started off by reading Finding Peace In A Frantic World, then found a course here in Brighton. It's not difficult to find a mindfulness course in this neck of the woods.
The book ignited my interest in mindfulness but it was the group course that grounded me in the practice.
There are no hard or fast rules about how one goes about this but I would say that the grounding is crucial. I run a mindfulness meet-up group here in Brighton and often meet people who got interested in mindfulness, then watched their interest fall away. Invariably, they are people who learned to meditate by watching a few You Tube videos, reading a few essays online etc. They never gave themselves the opportunity to immerse themselves in the practice at the beginning and I do believe that makes a massive difference.
I'd always advise people to seek out a teacher but I also realise that's not always feasible - not everyone can afford the £150-£170 for the 8-week course, not everyone lives in Brighton etc.
The book is, in my opinion, an adequate substitute. For one thing, it takes you through the course week by week, stage by stage, and is carefully calibrated all the away through.
We've actually got a thread devoted to the Finding Peace course here on the forum: viewtopic.php?f=21&t=3456
That might be useful for you. Meanwhile, like I say, feel free to ask any questions here on the forum. And maybe check out some of our other menu items on the main page: http://www.everyday-mindfulness.org
The interview section contains some useful accounts of people's mindfulness journeys: http://www.everyday-mindfulness.org/interviews/
All good things,
Jon

[Daisy]

Hi Jon, Thanks for sharing your story and it's great to communicate with someone who understands anxiety and depression. It's amazing to read about so many people whose lives have been transformed by mindfulness, and it's such a simple practice - simple, but not necessarily easy! There are a few courses and teachers available in my (rural) area and the cost is a concern but also I'd rather meet the teacher first before I commit to one. I've read so much about it over the years, and practiced it on and off all that time too but I can really see the benefits of following a good instructor. I may pursue this.

In the meantime though I'm going to involve myself in the book, and definately check out the forum. That's a great thing! I love bouncing ideas off folks and sharing experiences. Really glad I found this site - you and some of the other people who contribute/moderate seem to really know what you are talking about, are experienced and very helpful. Thank you! I'm looking forward to contributing to some of the discussions.

For the past couple of days I haven't practiced a formal meditation. I really fealt that I needed to take a break from it ... which might suggest that I need to try a slightly different approach, maybe a more gentle one which helps me deal with the issue of murky pond stirring! That said, in all honesty I've been through a tremendously stressful few months with work and family issues so perhaps this may not be the best time for judgments. Apologies for rambling again Jon - I'll head off now to those links you gave. By the way, before I go, could you possibly share what you mean by grounding, within a mindfulness context. Thanks again!

[JonW]

Hi Daisy,
Days off can be quite instructive, I find. When he originally devised the 8-week course back in 1979, Jon Kabat-Zinn suggested that his students practice for six days a week, not seven. My guess is that he advocated a day off so that, on that day off, we could see what it was like not to practice, and be able to compare with the days when we did practice. Though I could be wrong about that.
As for grounding…I guess I'm alluding to the difference between understanding the concepts of mindfulness and actually embodying mindfulness in our daily lives. The course is very carefully designed so that we're led from one stage to another, working up to the point where we are invited to turn (very gently) towards difficulty. Hopefully, by the end of the eight weeks, we will have established our own practice. As Kabat-Zinn says, the ninth week is the rest of our lives.
When I meet people who have warmed to mindfulness initially and then lapsed, it's usually because they had an intellectual understanding of the underlying principles but never quite managed to embody the practice in their lives. It's as though they gained an understanding about swimming by studying manuals but never ventured into the water.
Another thing Kabat-Zinn says is, "Mindfulness is simple but it's not easy." The easy part is grasping the concepts. The challenging part is maintaining a practice. It's my view that following a course maximises the potential for embodying the practice and then sustaining that practice.
Bon voyage!
All best,
Jon

[Gareth]

Hi Daisy,

You've had some great advice from Jon, and there isn't much I would add. Only that from reading your initial post, there was one sentence that stood out to me. It was this:

And it's not what I expected.

It's a simple yet critical facet of mindfulness that so many people seem to struggle with. We need to learn to let go of our expectations. The meditation is as it is. Some days it will be "good," and some days it will be "bad." I've used quotation marks because I don't think those are particularly helpful terms. The whole notion of good and bad is just our minds doing what they do - trying to categorise and judge our experiences.

Take it steadily and go easy on yourself. These lessons can't be learned overnight. They take time and consistent practice to "bed in" as Jon likes to phrase it.

Best of luck, and stay talking to us.

[Daisy]

Thank you both! I agree wholeheartedly with you Jon when you talk about knowing intellectually about mindfulness or any other discipline come to that - you could read every book in the world about it but unless you actually sit and do it for a length of time, you'll never really know it. It's the 'finger pointing to the moon' analogy. I understand this. I listened to the Mark Williams interview today given for the Mindfulness Summit. He mentioned briefly the thing I was worried about i.e. the distressing thoughts rising to the surface...but he was referring specifically to patients with suicidal tendencies. I'm far from that, but again this is why I think it's worth mentioning that unless you are working with a teacher who is really on the ball and prepared to deal with this with you, then it could be potentially off putting for certain people prone to depression, or who are perhaps embarking upon a mindfulness regime whilst in the throws of a depressive spell. I think personally I have a better grip on things now, and have to say chatting to you has really helped, and of course you pointed me in the direction of the book which was hidden away in my Kindle! I'm going back to the beginning with mindfulness and start afresh with a less "right lets get this done" attitude. Cheers for everything you have said

Gareth, thank you too. For highlighting that sentence in particular...I understand what you are saying. I don't seem to have a problem with 'good' or 'bad' meditation days at all, I'm quite open to whatever comes up whilst sitting there, it's just the aftermath I'm struggling with. Since I started sitting regularly, I have experience a kind of low rumbling rumination of thoughts...sometimes it's developed into anxiety attacks but funnily enough although these attacks are a blasted pain and pretty horrid, I actually find they are passing quicker - they don't seem to be hooking me in as much as usual. I don't know if I'm making any sense here but hopefully as the days and weeks pass I'll understand things better. I will go steady and take it easy. Wise advice

[jdandre]

Hi Daisy,

there's some anxious and negative thoughts rising to the surface an awful lot, like when you stir a pond and the bubbles rise to the surface. I don't like it!!...it's not what I expected.

There's a story about a guy who visits an enlightened sage - he travels for months to reach him and when he arrives, he tells the sage he has 54 problems that he needs help with. The sage tells him "I can't help you with your 54 problems, but I can help you with your 55th problem." The guy asks "What's my 55th problem?" The sage replies "You don't want to have any problems."

You say "I don't like it" and "It's not what I expected" - it's not the situation that causes us to suffer, it's our thoughts and feelings about the situation. That's what mindfulness and meditation teach us: you can view the situations in your life without the mental constructs, without chasing pleasure and pushing away pain, without expectations. This is how you get off the roller-coaster of "ups and downs."

but for people who are very prone to anxiety and depression, might there be a bit of a danger of bringing too much to the surface? I hope someone can offer to shine some light on this - thanks in advance.

Meditating doesn't create anything - it cultivates awareness of what's already there. To your point, there can be danger if you don't properly handle what's there - ie, you indulge it through dwelling, rumination, and more thought. But, that's not meditating.

Meditating isn't analyzing...it's learning not to indulge your compulsive mind and it's non-stop activity. It's learning to move your attention away from it, and back to the present moment/task at hand.

If you don't learn to do this, what's there will affect you eventually - maybe you'll explode, have a nervous breakdown, develop physical sickness, or simply be unhappy and miserable.

One final note - it seems you are taking in a lot of information and as you speculated, that can create problems. Reading and learning is not the same as practicing. The only book I would recommend to you is Tolle's "The Power of Now," because it gives a detailed overview of your mind and the problems it creates in your life.

The instructions for meditating are simple - I have a short post here detailing them. And, I'll plug one more of my posts you might find helpful: I want to overcome my anxiety by meditating.

[Daisy]

jandre, thank you so much for your input - I've just read it briefly for now and later when I have more time will digest fully and share my thoughts. Thanks also for the links which I look forward to reading!