awareness and thoughts, your perspective

[westie]

Hello! I find myself turning to you people on this forum once again for your perspectives on mindfulness. I thank you for that.

So when it comes to awareness of the thoughts, I understand that you can see the thoughts from a more objective point of view, that you can be aware of the thought created my the mind just as with sounds to the ear.

To quote Eckhart Tolle ; "What a liberation to realize that the "voice in my head" is not who I am. Who am I then? The one who sees that."

I am wondering how you people incorporate this awareness of thoughts when it comes to everyday life. I find myself getting a bit confused on this matter of "who am I if not my thoughts".

So to keep it a bit simple, do you "follow" or listen to the thought that you feel are positive, and tend to see the negative ones more objective? I mean it's kind of hard to make decisions in life and not "buying into" a thought. I'm not talking about meditation here.

I know I'm making things complicated here, and one of my biggest lessons in mindfulness so far has been to keep it simple. But with this matter I find it quite hard since I've never really had this perspective of thoughts.

I hope I've made myself understood here. Thank you.

[JonW]

Hi westie,
Great question.
To my mind, it's about realising that we have a choice in terms of how we respond to thoughts and whether we act on them or not.
If you go out for the evening and, en route to your destination, remember that you've left the oven on, that's a thought worth acting on. But it's not a thought you're likely to get stuck on, providing you do the wise thing and head back home to turn off the oven.
Many of our thoughts, maybe most of them, are not in this category. They are judgments/self-judgments. Or they are narratives that we spin, usually ruminations about the past or worries about the future. These kinds of thoughts can lead us into negative spirals of thought if we don't attend to them mindfully. That's to say, notice them when they arise and recognise them as thoughts, not facts.
So, mindfulness teaches us that we can be discriminating about thoughts and how we relate/respond to them. With practice we realise that we can find the space in which to respond mindfully, rather than simply react on auto-pilot.
It's not really a question of accepting positive thoughts and being objective about negative thoughts. Positive thoughts are still just thoughts. But they tend not to cause us any problems and, besides, they have a habit of disappearing quite quickly. It's the negative thoughts, for many of us, that have a habit of sticking around. If you like, negative thoughts are much more velcro-like.
As for Eckhart Tolle, it's important to remember that he is not referring to mindfulness as such when he asks, "Who am I if not my thoughts?" He's talking about non-duality. Non-duality, as defined by Jeff Foster "means ‘not two’ and points to the essential oneness (wholeness, completeness, unity) of life, a wholeness which exists here and now, prior to any apparent separation."
Non-duality is a fascinating subject but I'd be careful not to confuse it with mindfulness, especially when you're at the stage of getting a grounding in mindfulness practice. If, at any stage, you fancy exploring non-duality, I'd be happy to recommend some books. Just holler.
All good things,
Jon, Hove

[westie]

Thank you for your insightful perspective and your fast response, I'm amazed. I will definitely come back here to check your response in moments of confusion.

I guess I felt a bit like "Am I supposed to "question" or not trust all my thoughts all the time?" I like what you say about the choice we have to be mindful of a thought or to, perhaps with more positive ones, let them be.

As for Eckhart Tolle I ordered his "a new earth" and also a book from another guy called "the four assignments". It all happened when I sat down yesterday browsing the web and stumpleupon wikiquote of Eckhart Tolle. I was simply amazed of how he spoke about the ego and the power of the present moment etc.

I do however question if I am ready for this, more "spiritually" approach. I do not want it to interfere with my mindfulness practice. Maybe it will just create confusions.

[JonW]

Hi westie,
My pleasure.
It can be confusing for people when mindfulness is mixed in with various "spiritual" philosophies, especially when starting to practice. And especially if those philosophies contradict the teachings of mindfulness in any way.
My mindfulness teacher here in Brighton has recently begun post-mindfulness classes for students who have been through the 8-week course with him and find that mindfulness has opened up a world of curiosity. It sounds like a good idea to me. He tells me that he is quite often asked about Buddhism, Zen, non-duality etc. in his 8-week groups and reasons that he's there to teach mindfulness and just that. So his graduate classes are designed to deal with some of the questions that come up.
In a similar light, Stephan Bodian has recently published Beyond Mindfulness, which is highly recommended further reading for when you're ready to explore the more "spiritual" approach.
All good things,
Jon

[jdandre]

To add to JonW's post, if you want to explore non-duality from a less spiritual perspective, check out Sam Harris' book "Waking Up." I highly recommend it.

In regard to this statement:

So to keep it a bit simple, do you "follow" or listen to the thought that you feel are positive, and tend to see the negative ones more objective? I mean it's kind of hard to make decisions in life and not "buying into" a thought. I'm not talking about meditation here.

Realize that you are labeling and judging thoughts, and then you are choosing (or, favoring) particular thoughts based on those labels and judgments. I would recommend against that. Thoughts are just thoughts, and if you continue the habit of calling these "positive" and those "negative," you are still caught up in the workings of your mind.

In mindfulness, you want to pay attention to everything that arises without judging it.

You also mention that it's hard to make a decision without "buying into a thought" - but, why is that? Consider this: buying into a thought is just more thought...it's the mind working its way back in. If you look at it from that perspective, you see that it's not objective at all - you are falling into the same trap which leads you down the path of conditioned actions/reactions that you have always been subject to.

Non-judgmental awareness, on the other hand, creates the space you need to make better decisions and take better actions...in essence, taking your life off autopilot (to borrow JonW's word from above).

[JonW]

Great post, jdandre.
About returning home to turn off the oven.
As far as the mind is concerned, turning the oven off might not be the end of it. The mind starts revving up:
"What if I hadn't remembered that I left the oven on? What if the house had burned down with Tiddles fast asleep in her cat biscuit? What an idiot I am for not checking the oven before I went out."
And on, and on.
Those thoughts we just notice. The crucial difference is between simply noticing the thoughts and getting caught up in the content of them.
As some wiseacre once said, "The mind is a wonderful servant, but a truly terrible master."
Jon

[westie]

First of all Thank you for your posts about this perspective of "positive thoughts" this is a quote from the mindful way through depression by Jon kabat-zinn etc;

"An effective response is not to ignore them but to see them clearly, with awareness. When we let them come and go, we remain free to choose which thoughts are appropriate, even wise and healthy; which to listen to, believe and possibly act on; and which to simply recognise as unhelpful and let pass."

What's your opinion of this statement? When you do think with focused awareness, how do you know what thoughts to trust so to say? Do you ever in your personal life use thoughts to "your advantage" in a way described in the same book as above "Ah there you are; let me see who you are" in a way talking to yourself.

Or do you always try to be just the awareness? It's quite a complicated subject for me. Cheers.

Edit: I just saw this video by eckhart tolle which made a lot of sense to me; https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6U-oz6Kcos4

I like the way he speaks of being your own minds master, to use thinking as a tool for, perhaps things you need to plan for in the future etc. but only when you "apply" awareness before you start thinking.

[JonW]

Hi there.
Kabat-Zinn is really talking about useful thoughts rather than "positive thoughts".
And some thoughts are useful, right across the spectrum of life.
"My dog is limping, I should take him to the vet."
"I'm hosting a dinner party tonight and all the guests are vegetarians. I won't make a steak pie."
"That bus is heading towards me fast. I'd better step onto the pavement and get out of the way."
These kinds of thoughts help us navigate our way through life on a daily basis and tend not to cause us any problems. We have the thought, we act on it, and forget about it. They're still just thoughts. But they don't require us to be discriminating, so we don't really need to be mindful about them.
Then there are other thoughts which usually take the form of self-judgments:
"Nothing good ever happens to me."
"I'm such a loser."
"Nobody will ever find me attractive again."
If these thoughts are accepted as facts, which they're decidedly not, they can cause us a lot of misery as they stick around and proliferate, creating a spiral of negativity that can cause anxiety and depression.
Mindfully, we see these thoughts, as they arise, as simply thoughts, not facts. With practice, and it does require a lot of committed practice, we learn to habitually observe these thoughts. In some cases, it will be enough to simply notice them. If they're particularly persistent thoughts, we might show some curiosity towards them - by turning towards them, we notice how the thought triggers a physical reaction, for example.
When starting to practice mindfulness, this can all sound a little bit tricky. As our practice continues, responding to such thoughts mindfully becomes more like second nature.
It's not, to my mind, a case of being "just the awareness" (which perhaps owes more to non-duality than mindfulness), it's more about being aware, paying attention. Or, in other words, being mindful.
Patience is key here. It's good that you're asking these questions but it will take time for the answers to present themselves. It doesn't mean that you're not "getting" mindfulness. It just means that you're on a learning curve.
As Morrissey sang, "these things take time."
All best wishes,
Jon

[westie]

Wow thank you this post was really great for me and my future practice.

I don't know, I'm in a state of stress and then usually the doing mind becomes a lot more active in trying to get everything "right".

I'm copying this answer to my phone if I confuse myself again.

[JonW]

My pleasure.
Do feel free to ask any questions that arise. That's what the forum is here for.
All best,
Jon, Hove