Thoughts just an illusion? + analytical thinking?

[Buddhakind]

Hi everyone!

I suffer from OCD and depression and I've been wrestling with it for quite a while now. I already read a lot of self-help books, saw shrinks etc. using a lot of CBT and now ended up with Mindfulness as my last solution.
Brief, I am fascinated. It definately helped a lot with my OCD issues so far.

I've started reading Full catastrophe living and I'm at the end of the first week of the 8-week programm.

At the same time I'm also reading Mindfulness for dummies, the mindful way through depression and The mindfulness workbook for OCD.

I have a few questions and I would be really grateful for answers, as this is quite important to me.

Questions (I'm going a bit all over the place):

1) my understanding: accept your negative and positive thoughts and see them for what they really are- just thoughts.

- So what can u believe in in the end if everything is just an illusion of the mind? What is real, what is illusion?

- What about positiv thoughts? Doesn't mindfulness then numb them?
"I'm happy - Oh that's just a thought.."


2) my understanding: when a negative thought/feeling/emotion arises u should see it come and go without trying to rationalize or fix it. It's just there, be with it.

- Does that mean that everytime I feel that I have a problem, i should simply feel it and not try solving it?

- When is analytical thinking appropriate?

Again, any help is really appreciated!:))
Btw. This forum is awesome

[piedwagtail91]

hi
"2) my understanding: when a negative thought/feeling/emotion arises u should see it come and go without trying to rationalize or fix it. It's just there, be with it.

- Does that mean that everytime I feel that I have a problem, i should simply feel it and not try solving it?

- When is analytical thinking appropriate?
"
To me this only applies whilst meditating.
meditation isn't for solving your problem, but by meditating and simply 'being' with the emotions attached to the problem and letting the thoughts go then you'll quite possibly have a much better state of mind and be able to see the problem more clearly after meditation, that's also when you can do your analytical thinking, when you're not wrapped up in the emotions attached to the situation.
that's if there is any emotion left after meditation, sometimes it fades away, leaving you with what's real.
trying to analyse when you're experiencing strong emotions isn't really a good idea, i know it's not in my case.
when you get to week three there's a short mediation that's used for just this.
meditation allows you a space to take a step back, to see things as they really are.

mindfulness doesn't numb anything, it helps you to see things more clearly.

[JonW]

Hi Buddhakind,
Welcome to the forum.
I can't really add much to what Mick has already said.
The idea about creating space around thoughts and feelings is crucial.
As Elisha Goldstein said in my recent interview with him, "In essence, the practice is to notice when the judging is happening so we can recognise the space in between what we’re judging (the stimulus) and the judging itself (the reaction) and choose to make a change. The power to choose our responses comes with an awareness of that space."
Realising that space, which becomes more and more evident with practice, we begin to see that we have a choice in terms of responding to our thoughts. It doesn't mean we still stop making plans in life. But decisions are made from a calmer, more rational place. When negative thoughts arise (ruminations on past events, worries about the future), we're able to see those thoughts purely as thoughts, and let them go, rather than get attached to them in velcro fashion.
The full interview with Elisha is here: http://www.everyday-mindfulness.org/int ... goldstein/
I'd also highly recommend this recent blog by Emily about mindfulness and OCD: http://www.everyday-mindfulness.org/ocd ... ss-and-me/
Please feel free to ask any further questions and to join in any of the conversational threads on this forum.
Great to have you on board.
All best wishes,
Jon, Hove

[Buddhakind]

Thanks Mick and Jon. Both of your answers were really helpful!

To Mick: i'm quite relieved that I'm still allowed to use my analytical mind!:)
So you make quite a distinction between meditative state and "normal" state?
The 7+ attitudes that JKZ refers to shouldn't they be cultivated in both states?

To Jon: I read both articles and there were very very interesting and inspiring!
I believe that the mentioned "non-striving" is definately a major sticking point for me.

Here one more question to you guys which is closely related to my first question before:

- when should you believe your thoughts?

Thank you for your help!:)

[JonW]

"When should you believe your thoughts?"

When you're absolutely sure that what the thought is telling you is 100% true.
Very few thoughts fall under this category.
Some thoughts are worth listening to and acting on (e.g. "That bus is fast approaching me. I'd better move out of the way.")
Some thoughts are useful prompts to make changes in our lives (e.g. "It's time I changed my job, moved house etc.")
Most of the 76,000+ thoughts we have a day are rumination, worry, speculation, fantasy, self-judgment...Observe them and let them fall away.
Cheers,
Jon, Hove

ps. If you ever get the thought, "I must pay a million quid into Jon's bank account", definitely act on it.

[Buddhakind]

Hmm.. 1 million? Peanuts! How about 2 million?;)

I think it's very hard to know if a thought is true or not. A degree of uncertainty is always there. Even if it's only 0.001%.
Saying one thought is correct and the other is incorrect sounds a bit black/white thinking to me, and maybe reality moves between the two.

Instead, as you said, it's probably more functional to see if a thought is "useful" or helpful or not.

I'm still a bit confused.. My whole life I was relying on my thinking and never doubted it. It's difficult for me to fully grasp the concept.

[piedwagtail91]

"To Mick: i'm quite relieved that I'm still allowed to use my analytical mind!:)
So you make quite a distinction between meditative state and "normal" state?
The 7+ attitudes that JKZ refers to shouldn't they be cultivated in both states?"

By meditate i mean the formal sit/lie down meditation.
I'm usually quite mindful or aware of what I'm doing outside of that time - well most of the time
brushing teeth, eating , walking and in my case yoga etc.
it's not just about the time on the mat,which is only around 1/24th of my day it's about taking that awareness and the space it brings into your life.

I don't do anything other than meditate when I (formally)meditate, there's lots of day left outside of meditation to analyse with a clearer view of things.

ps don't give it all to jon, i'll have a couple of million as well

[Gareth]

I don't think it helps to think of a "meditative" state and a "non-meditative" state. Meditation is a process, an act. Letting go over and over again.

With continued practice, this begins to seep into our everyday life, and we get better at letting go generally. It seems so small, and such an insignificant thing, but for me at least, the cumulative effect of this has been too great to quantify.

Mindfulness is a million stories that I have never told myself.

[piedwagtail91]

Gareth is right about meditative and non meditative. I don't usually distinguish but for some reason I feel I need to do when i put it into writing.

[JonW]

"Saying one thought is correct and the other is incorrect sounds a bit black/white thinking to me, and maybe reality moves between the two."

I guess I meant that a lot of thoughts that appear to be true, or feel as though they're true are simply judgments.
eg. My life is a disaster? Why do bad things always happen to me? My boss is always horrible.
Jon

ps. I'll settle for half a million as Mick deserves some of your fortune too. Very kind of you to offer.
*rubs hands*