Week 6 and increasing sleep and physical problems

[Matt Y]

I agree to a certain point,as long as you don't use a mindfulness guided meditation to try to get to sleep. The mindfulness practices are for 'falling awake' not asleep.

Contrary to popular assertions and belief, I have found that you can be just as mindful of a deeply relaxed sleep-like and dreamy state as you can a highly alert and wakeful state. I've also learned that prohibiting yourself from entering these sleep-like states prevents you from understanding and accessing a whole raft of worthwhile mental states. Furthermore, by resisting the descent towards sleep you may set up a subtle fight with yourself, whereas by surrendering into such states you may drift off, only to 'wake up' quite naturally a short time later.

I'd argue that mindfulness practices have no particular purpose but the one each individual brings to them; and that if someone wants to use them to help them fall asleep that's their choice.

[piedwagtail91]

That's a fair enough reply. But there is a danger of developing the habit of falling asleep every time you practice which won't help with developing awareness.

This is something I've used in a session recently it's by Jon kabat zinn, it's a bit long sorry.
This is a participant question:

Every time I try to do the body scan, I fall asleep. What should I do?

This is a very common experience when working with all lying down meditations, and particularly with the body scan, especially at first. It happens even though the whole purpose of the body scan, and all other meditations, is to "fall awake," in other words, to be present and aware, no matter what is happening. The reasons for falling asleep are many. For one, almost all of us are sleep deprived and so we naturally tend to fall asleep when we lie down and get comfortable. After all, that is what we do (hopefully) every night when we get into bed. It takes some practice to learn to be aware of the fork in the road we come to, that moment where one path leads to sleep, the other to wakefulness, and chose the latter. But with practice, you can discern such moments, and choose awareness over sleepiness. To slant things even more in favor of wakefulness, before practicing you can splash cold water on your face, or do whatever is necessary to make sure you are ready to stay awake in the body scan. Of course, time of day can make a big difference, so perhaps early in the morning would be better than late at night, depending on your biological clock and schedule. You can also practice with your eyes open. That is a wonderful way to practice with the body scan and other forms of meditation. It also helps if you specifically formulate the intention to stay awake at the very start, and then be alert to any feelings of sleepiness if or when they start to set in. That awareness alone will allow you to choose wakefulness, and thereby experience the whole of the body scan, from the toes of the left foot all the way up through the top of your head! But for some people, it may take weeks of persevering, and that in itself is a good thing. The benefits of finally learning to dwell in awareness within the body, fully awake, full present, are very much worth the effort and discipline.

[Matt Y]

I'd agree with all you've written there Mick, though I think describing falling asleep as a 'danger' is a bit of an exaggeration! There's a good chance it might happen, but it's hardly life-threatening.

I think the 'literature' on mindfulness and meditation places a little too much emphasis on the staying awake aspect (which is largely an artifact from Buddhism, where the emphasis is on waking up and become enlightened). As you rightly point out, many mindfulness students are sleep deprived, and they've been in the habit of associating lying down with sleep for their entire lives. It's no surprise that they end up in a deeply relaxed, sleep-like state, and in all likelihood, this may be just what they need.

When too much emphasis is placed on staying awake, folks often end up berating themselves unnecessarily; feeling that they've failed because they keep falling asleep.
I feel that it is far more important to be kind and gentle to oneself than to remain 'supremely alert' throughout every meditation you do. By setting up the expectation that you should be awake all the time, we risk reinforcing habits of self-chastisement; and some people even give up, assuming that they are incapable of meditating. Also, it's simply not possible to be alert all the time. The mind needs its rest, its dreamy, slow, sleepy states. I've found that great insight and creativity frequently arise out of such states, whereas a clear, alert mind doesn't allow the mind to process in that 'right-brain' way. In this respect, I've found it more useful to be aware of all our mind states, rather than just one ideal state. By idealising one state (awake, aware) we devalue all the others.

Finally, most students, even experienced ones, often assume that they've fallen asleep; when in fact, they are just deeply relaxed. Unless you are snoring or drooling, you are usually still awake. The mind may be in a state in which you see and remember little, or find yourself dreaming, or in some kind of hypnotic or trance-like state; but the fact is, when the meditation ends, most people immediately come out of it. When they are asleep, they don't.

[piedwagtail91]

"I'd agree with all you've written there Mick, though I think describing falling asleep as a 'danger' is a bit of an exaggeration! There's a good chance it might happen, but it's hardly life-threatening. "
yeh , i could have worded it much better
i agree and respect your views, it really is just down to my understanding of the teachers i've had and worked with.
i've had and still have sleep problems, i don't worry about them now and have used a lot of other ways to get to sleep, some i wouldn't mention , some maybe a bit bizarre,(concentrating on keeping your eyelids OPEN and feeling them slide closed before forcing them open again worked at one time!) i've tried to keep it to mindfulness though i know i've slipped in to yoga a few times.
maybe i am more influenced by buddhism at the moment, i've spent a couple of months reading up on it to see how it differs from mindfulness.

it's always good to read what other people think and read about their methods. i always take it on board and see if i can use it by maybe slightly changing my own ideas.
for me that's what learning is about, i mainly learn by watching , but that's not possible on here so i learn by taking in other points of view.
i hope this discussion has helped others as well.
mick