MBSR and nirvana

[tringlarido]

Hey meditators !

I’m new here,
I have started meditation about 7 months ago. I started with vipassana meditation from goenka. Today I like to read about the scientific researches. Currently am working on the 8 weeks mbsr of kaba zin by curiosity, and maybe with these reading to have a better picture, and involvement in the practice of meditation.

I've got several questions, but the first one I'm thinking of is, has there been any researches on the levels of mind supposedly reached through meditation. I don't know exactly the details of this levels, but I believe that some buddhist traditions have described different level of consciousness,

Is there any equivalent in the scientific world that describe these levels of consciousness ? And ultimately has the science any words to describe the state of enlightement ?

Do we consider that the nirvana is related to a divine belief, or has there been any scientific evidences to show specific states of the brain related these different levels of consciousness ?

thank u all,

[JonW]

Hi tringlarido,
You asked, "has there been any researches on the levels of mind supposedly reached through meditation?"
I'm sure there's plenty of research findings on that subject but these would not be relevant to mindfulness as practiced by members of this forum. Nor would we be concerned with asking whether nirvana is related to a divine belief. Our approach is purely secular.
Wishing you all the best,
Jon

[tringlarido]

Hi Jon, thanks for the answer, yep I consider as beginner and find the researches about this fascinating.
When u say "
I'm sure there's plenty of research findings on that subject but these would not be relevant to mindfulness as practiced by members of this forum.
why is that the case ? are the different levels of consciousness considered as non secular ?
thanks

[JonW]

"Are the different levels of consciousness considered as non secular?"
It's not so much that, only that the question is not relevant to mindfulness which is unconcerned with different levels of consciousness. I'm not saying that the question is not an interesting one, only that it's not applicable here.
Cheers,
Jon

[tringlarido]

ok, maybe I'm not precise with my question.
What I heard sometimes from buddhist tradition, are different states of meditations, that one can reach. In the mbsr yet, I haven't find similar things or don't know where to look for.
So I just google that to show some exemple
I'm not talking about that http://operationmeditation.com/discover ... rspective/. This one seems like a religious theory of the mind,
but more about
http://www.vipassanadhura.com/sixteen.html. This one seems more like a practical description of the meditation states of "understanding", or states of different sensations of the body.
=> anything that attempt to describe such things in a scientific fashion or any researches on this ?
thanks

[tringlarido]

"Are the different levels of consciousness considered as non secular?"
It's not so much that, only that the question is not relevant to mindfulness which is unconcerned with different levels of consciousness. I'm not saying that the question is not an interesting one, only that it's not applicable here.
Cheers,
Jon

ah ok fair enough, I didn't see your answer before posting the last one. Thanks for your time cheers

[tringlarido]

do u know any forums where the question would be applicable ? or any people I can contact

[JonW]

Hello again.
I've heard that the following is a very friendly Buddhist forum:
http://www.freesangha.com/forums/
The mindfulness we discuss on this forum is very much the Jon Kabat-Zinn model. Though derived from Buddhism (Kabat-Zinn was at one time a Zen Buddhist), the approach, as I say, is purely secular and is not related to attaining a specific meditative state or exploring "levels" of consciousness. It's more to do with noticing/observing our thoughts/feelings in the present moment without judgment and with compassion.
If you would like to know more about Kabat-Zinn's form of mindfulness I would highly recommend any of his books, particularly Coming To Our Senses.
I wish you all good things,
Jon

[tringlarido]

thanks for the link, I'll try there ! Yes I'm working on kabat zin material. I could just do what I know already, and not care about knowing more, the practice is the most important indeed.. But well, I'm curious too ! My meditation is also based on same principles as u mention, and I'm not trying to reach any state of meditation state eheh ! Well I know that would be counter productive.. And I actually don't know them. But at the same time, from a cartesian perspective, as I'm reading mbsr, I question the links between mindfulness and buddhism meditations knowledge. Also as they have been practicing this for 2500years, and us for only 30 years, I suppose they must be good at it. I think it is interesting to question this knowledge with a secular mindset. how comes did they come up with all that ? ( the second link for example ) is it based on religion beliefs, and/or is there any things useful for scientific researches in there.That's why I thought it had more sense to ask it in a mindfulness forum and not buddhist. (But you're right too, it's good idea indeed).

[piedwagtail91]

when you start mindfulness it's usually best to forget everything you know about other forms of meditation.
mindfulness (mbsr/mbct) may have it's roots in buddhism but isn't buddhism.
it's a stand alone self contained form of practice thats been developed over the years.
comparing it to what you already know is not the way to learn mindfulness, it's counter productive.