Everyday Mindfulness

Background

I wrote a reply to a fellow practitioner on emotions that are beginning to surface due to meditation and mindfulness practice. After writing my reply I got the sense things may get complicated for me on this board and wanted to head-off any views of me other than I'm the same as everyone else.

BioSattva replied and before we totally hijack that thread and take it off topic I thought I'd bring that conversation here to let those who want to help the original poster do so without this conversation being all mixed in it.

You can see my original post here: http://www.everyday-mindfulness.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3421&p=5013#p5013, my second post here: http://www.everyday-mindfulness.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3421&p=5013#p5028.. And I've quoted BioSattva's reply and answer it below (you can also see it on the next page of that original topic if you want to read it directly).

BioSattva wrote:Wow

Where can all this possibly go next Omni? Excluding selling t-shirts for your fan club, of course .

lolz. The capitalist can make money under any circumstances.

BioSattva wrote:I'm sure there will be plenty of questions for you.

I've thought about having a "Ask Omni" area on my website (currently doing *nothing* with it). But I'm cool with it if it starts here, looks like a good venue (plus these plush seats and cool paintings really give this place a nice ambiance).

BioSattva wrote:Why not choose what you feel is a key aspect of your awakening - for example what you feel is separating your awakened state and the non-awakened state of others (hopefully short and brief for those of us with less time than you on our hands) and we can discuss that on a separate thread.

Sounds like a good starting question. I'll pick that up in a thread later today (hopefully).

As far as time, with distractions (like twitter, the bane of my ADD ), that last post took about 2 hours. As a result I got 4 hours of sleep last night. Right now I don't have much spare time, so anything I do extra is usually paid for by my sleep. I can't run on that type of sleep on a regular basis. For the sake of time I'm thinking of doing more video. I have a decent webcam and "flip" cam and can get a lot more said in a shorter time like that, not to mention being able to convey feeling, tone, etc. People tend to read everything in the same mood they are in, making "oral transmission" a valuable tool against confusion or mis-instruction.

BioSattva wrote:What happens when you socialise with people? Do you have people lining up outside your house and knocking on your door yet wishing to bathe in any tangible Buddha light? It sounds like you are heading for Gandhi status. Are you prepared for that?

Now it's my turn: Wow

Not at all. This is my point with roles. We all play different roles through our day. If I can't just be a friend, then even enlightenment has become of no real value to me. I can't allow some "Gandhi" role in my life interfere with me living it. And it would certainly be a big disruption. My closest friends know my experience, I've shared it with them. A few of them have been with me through the entire process stretching back 15+ years and know my successes and failures. If I suddenly became "Gandhi" to them it would be unhealthy and dysfunctional. If I become Gandhi to anyone it would be dysfunctional for everyone involved, especially me.

When I'm with people who are interested, I help them where they are in their practice. When I'm with people who aren't interested I just focus on whatever they're interested in. I guess that's actually the guiding principle: be to others what the need "now". As our mindfulness increases we work the dysfunction we have out and our mind becomes more clear, more sensitive. This clear sensitivity allows us to see others exactly as they are and then just be as they are "+1". Imagine going down a lifelong road, someone who is already at the end can't help you much, they're too far away. In life if we're "too far ahead" of others they can't identify with where we are and they don't connect where they are with where we are, and without that connection they just don't think what we have to say will help them where they are. If instead we're where they are plus just a small step, then they identify with where we are and we're able to give them just a word or two to help them find their way to make that next step.

Be to others what they need "now". No more, no less. Doing this prevents you from becoming "Gandhi" at least in your own mind - which is the most important place to know who you really are.

BioSattva wrote:Maybe you will be the Dalai Lama of the West?

Good grief.

Maybe you're just poking fun - let me poke back: will that be the logo on the first-edition t-shirt? :^D

I am only who I am. No more, no less.

BioSattva wrote:Do you teach mindfulness classes yet? It sounds like you should.

Thinking. I've reserved my domain name, whatever I do long term, I'll do it there.

On the note of mindfulness, mindfulness is like learning to read. All the rest of the awakening experience is on understanding and dealing with what comes up now that we're mindful, just as one who has just learned to read spends the next 12, 16, 20 years of their life doing nothing but learning, and then the rest of their life working and continuing to learn (we hope).

I think helping "after learning mindfulness" is actually a more valuable and meaningful service. Consider the first post I replied to. It wasn't "how to be mindful" that was needed, it was "Now that I've started, what do I do with all this stuff that's coming up?" 9 times out 10 it's going to be "ignore it and chill", but the doing of that "ignoring and chilling" will be different with each person.

BioSattva wrote:If not, do you plan to? What do you tend to do with your available time beyond any formal mindfulness practice?

Right now? Work. Gotta still pay for the house, feed the fam, etc.

I think the best direction at this moment is some form of "Ask Omni" and we see what happens from there.

Thanks for opening this new thread, Omni. It's a shame you are sacrificing your sleep to speak to us here - your life must be very busy. Your apparent experience and reflections are very intriguing and your candid approach is much appreciated.

OmniPada wrote:

BioSattva wrote:What happens when you socialise with people? Do you have people lining up outside your house and knocking on your door yet wishing to bathe in any tangible Buddha light? It sounds like you are heading for Gandhi status. Are you prepared for that?

Now it's my turn: Wow

Not at all. This is my point with roles. We all play different roles through our day. If I can't just be a friend, then even enlightenment has become of no real value to me. I can't allow some "Gandhi" role in my life interfere with me living it. And it would certainly be a big disruption. My closest friends know my experience, I've shared it with them. A few of them have been with me through the entire process stretching back 15+ years and know my successes and failures. If I suddenly became "Gandhi" to them it would be unhealthy and dysfunctional. If I become Gandhi to anyone it would be dysfunctional for everyone involved, especially me.

When I'm with people who are interested, I help them where they are in their practice. When I'm with people who aren't interested I just focus on whatever they're interested in. I guess that's actually the guiding principle: be to others what the need "now". As our mindfulness increases we work the dysfunction we have out and our mind becomes more clear, more sensitive. This clear sensitivity allows us to see others exactly as they are and then just be as they are "+1". Imagine going down a lifelong road, someone who is already at the end can't help you much, they're too far away. In life if we're "too far ahead" of others they can't identify with where we are and they don't connect where they are with where we are, and without that connection they just don't think what we have to say will help them where they are. If instead we're where they are plus just a small step, then they identify with where we are and we're able to give them just a word or two to help them find their way to make that next step.

Be to others what they need "now". No more, no less. Doing this prevents you from becoming "Gandhi" at least in your own mind - which is the most important place to know who you really are.

I didn't mean that you are going to actively play a role like Gandhi, I meant that you have posted on an internet forum that you are 'awakened' in some deep sense - a fully realised Buddha released from the bonds of suffering? - and that you are willing to provide help to anyone (with a mindfulness practice?) who asks you, and you have what appear to be all the answers to mindfulness practice difficulties and there is a potential fan club scenario here - that is the 'Gandhi status' I was referring to. Someone doing what you are doing tends to become incredibly popular, sought after, seen as a threat or 'saviour' by spiritual fanatics, etc. I was wondering if you are ready for that?

Ultimately, it seems you can't stop people from asking you for whatever they need - you can't hold back your compassionate nature to share the solutions to the problems of others who suffer, and that was the apparent key situation that increased the fame and projected power of people like the Buddha, Jesus, Gandhi, etc. If one looks into their stories, then one will see the difficulties they faced in having to follow their compassionate heart and help people - their fame inevitably increased and they gained many followers/disciples, including assassination attempts and successes. Declaring that one is awakened and that there is an inevitable fan club scenario on the cards, and that one no longer gets angry and has the answers people need is definitely setting oneself up for a kind of Gandhi existence - or more - a Gautama Buddha existence, from my perspective. It seems unavoidable.

You talk about playing roles as needed, but I am assuming you can't hold back your compassionate nature when someone in serious need of help approaches you.... so you have a 'permanent' role that is unavoidable in that respect, don't you think? For example, if you were to suddenly abandon all of us here after arriving and saying that you are here to help, don't you think that that would be an uncompassionate and 'unawakened' act? What if, for example, someone asked you if they could come and camp in your garden and learn from you? Would you refuse them if you had the capacity to allow such a thing? If you would refuse them, even though you had the capacity to allow them, what would be the reason? There are many such potential scenarios that someone who is awakened and unconditionally compassionate can face - things like personal property take on a different meaning and value. What if the 'Omni fan club' decided they wanted to pool together and pay off your house and car, and donate you a practice center, for example? This is the kind of beginnings of a Gandhi scenario that I am talking about.

One would also assume that your awakened state does not mean that you are only concerned with helping people with the details of mindfulness practice - that you are also concerned with helping all people to reach your awakened state - muslims, Christians, Jews, etc., and that you have an unbridled intention to help every sentient being in the world in whatever 'skillful' way that you can. Have you considered meeting other apparently 'awakened' individuals, like Thich Nhat Hanh, to discuss your experience? Do you want to make sure that this term 'awakened' you are applying to yourself is correct in the context of Zen Buddhism and mindfulness practice? What is your job, may I ask, and how many hours do you work a week? Do you have any hobbies?

I really hope, for your sake, and mine , that you truly have this awakened state, and that you are able to shoulder the social responsibility you are taking upon yourself. People come on the internet all the time and declare they are Jesus, Buddha, God, Enlightened, Awakened, whatever, and in all other cases I have seen it has ended in sadness. I am always happy to practice beginner's mind and acceptance however, so welcome again , although I suspect spectacular claims are going to need spectactular evidence for many people.

Bio.

PS: About video - it's difficult to skim and quote, and is not so much a discussion format as a dictation format, if you see what I mean. It's difficult to go back and see what has been said. Hopefully you have the time to post here while keeping things as brief as possible.

BioSattva wrote:Thanks for opening this new thread, Omni. It's a shame you are sacrificing your sleep to speak to us here - your life must be very busy. Your apparent experience and reflections are very intriguing and your candid approach is much appreciated.

You're welcome.

BioSattva wrote:

OmniPada wrote:Be to others what they need "now". No more, no less. Doing this prevents you from becoming "Gandhi" at least in your own mind - which is the most important place to know who you really are.

I didn't mean that you are going to actively play a role like Gandhi, I meant that you have posted on an internet forum that you are 'awakened' in some deep sense - a fully realised Buddha released from the bonds of suffering?

I don't use the word "Buddha" in describing myself. I believe the meaning of the word in it's original usage is pretty different from the average perception of that word today.

But yes, "awakened" as described by Gautama.

BioSattva wrote:- and that you are willing to provide help to anyone (with a mindfulness practice?) who asks you,

I help those without a mindfulness practice. A woman whom I have been trying to help for months now finally "got it" late last week and within one week she's gone from a negative co-worker with many relationship problems at work to someone who is now soft, kind, and grateful for the help. Monday I was able to stop her (through reason) from going into a meeting she was going to have with her boss where she was going to tell him everything that he needed to do from her perspective. Instead she was able to see her self, went into the meeting and was surprised to find herself written up. She came back realizing how wrong her perspective has been for the year and a half she's worked at this company. I spoke with her late into the evening tonight after work, and I'm amazed at how much she's changed in just a week. If someone would have told me that she would have been changed this much I would have doubted them. And once again the point is driven home to me that there are none beyond help, and the most helpless is probably the best candidate.

She's never meditated once, and I doubt she'd ever show interest in it (and I'll be happy to find myself also wrong on that one). I began to try to help her months ago because I saw the need.

Once a lawyer asked Jesus how to have eternal life, Jesus turned it on him and asked him how he read it. The lawyer replied to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said the man had said well. The man wanted to justify himself so he asked Jesus who his neighbor was. From this Jesus told the parable of the good samaritan, the man who helped another who was robbed and beaten, left for dead and then neglected by various religious people to good to help him. Jesus asked him a highly revealing question, not who was the neighbor, but "who made themselves to be the neighbor".

In this life we all seek ways to avoid helping others. We're averse (one of the three causes of suffering) to having to expend ourselves.

I say if we make the choice to not help the one who has need and has come into our life, then we are exercising our own will, another form of separation from the ultimate reality - there is only one will there, it is what is. Exercise of the self-will separates the willful from this reality and brings about more suffering.

BioSattva wrote:and you have what appear to be all the answers to mindfulness practice difficulties and there is a potential fan club scenario here - that is the 'Gandhi status' I was referring to. Someone doing what you are doing tends to become incredibly popular, sought after, seen as a threat or 'saviour' by spiritual fanatics, etc. I was wondering if you are ready for that?

"Being ready" in the sens of being willing, if it will be, then who am I to say yes or no to what is? That's not really my problem. My problem is only to remain equanimous if such events were to happen.

"Being ready" in the sense of preparation, I've learned that whatever you need, you get, whatever you can handle, you'll have. You never have a problem that you can't handle. You never have abundance that you can't handle. We may mishandle things, but it's not because we didn't have the capacity. I believe the correct handling is the same equanimity in the sentence above.

For the savior complex, you see how I really have no interest in fostering such a preposterous idea. I'll just spend more time convincing you that I'm nothing special than I do actually helping you (actually, that will be the only "helping you" I could do until it sunk in, until then your mind would be focused on me instead of you and I'd have to change that focus).

And it's not healthy to think about these things too much. Everyone sits around wondering about what they will do if they won the lottery, and none of them do. Waste of mental energy, ultimately it only brings about more suffering.

Only the present moment should be lived in.

For ways to leave the present moment:

1. Thinking positively about the future. "Oh when I get the next pay raise" "when I get the next job" "when my friends and I go out this Friday" All of these inflate the future positively and it can become an escape mechanism by which we don't have to stay focused on the "now" that I don't really like. When the present is returned too, it's viewed now as a form of suffering.

2. Thinking negatively about the future. "I'll get fired" "my friend will die" "my car will break down" All of these bring the suffering of some imagined event that may or may not actually happen, into the present moment. Why suffer early for something, especially when it may not even happen?

3. Thinking positively about the past. "Those were the good ole days" These thoughts make the present seem to be suffering, same as #1

4. Thinking negatively about the past. Whatever that event was, the suffering from that event wasn't needed then and it's still not needed today. Why suffer for something that has already ended? If the event itself is continuing to the present, keep in mind this equation:

Suffering = pain X resistance

The more you resist, the more you suffer. You can't control the pain, that's the event of life. But you can control the resistance. By lowering resistance to 0 you can reduce your suffering to 0.

I'm not interested in living too much in the future, wondering about fame, stardom, being labeled a radical, hated by religious leaders, etc. That's too large of a distraction from living in this present moment, there's no telling how much I'm missing in the present moment thinking about some future that will probably never happen, and if it does, I can practically guarantee it won't happen the way I imagined it. So much for preparation.

BioSattva wrote:Ultimately, it seems you can't stop people from asking you for whatever they need - you can't hold back your compassionate nature to share the solutions to the problems of others who suffer, and that was the apparent key situation that increased the fame and projected power of people like the Buddha, Jesus, Gandhi, etc. If one looks into their stories, then one will see the difficulties they faced in having to follow their compassionate heart and help people - their fame inevitably increased and they gained many followers/disciples, including assassination attempts and successes. Declaring that one is awakened and that there is an inevitable fan club scenario on the cards, and that one no longer gets angry and has the answers people need is definitely setting oneself up for a kind of Gandhi existence - or more - a Gautama Buddha existence, from my perspective. It seems unavoidable.

You talk about playing roles as needed, but I am assuming you can't hold back your compassionate nature when someone in serious need of help approaches you.... so you have a 'permanent' role that is unavoidable in that respect, don't you think?

No. For when I sleep, all roles come to an end. Even in some wild extreme scenario that you'd like to draw out I'd still have the privacy of my own life, my own interior which none can intrude upon. I have a place inside that is a pavilion hidden in the dark. In a crowded room with much interaction I can always withdraw to this place and rest from the activity of the world.

Plus, I'll have you handing out the t-shirts keeping them all busy at the Omni-swag table. Just kidding. But seriously, I already have two students, and I would develop more, and instead of doing so much one-on-one I'd focus on being the resource my students could call on as they serviced the people. You need to start getting serious about your practice and spend as much time being mindful as you do dreaming out my future, or you'll be of no use to me or the rest of the world.

BioSattva wrote:For example, if you were to suddenly abandon all of us here after arriving and saying that you are here to help, don't you think that that would be an uncompassionate and 'unawakened' act?

Yes. But I may also have adequate reason. I have been on other forums (much more established than this) where everyone was so legalistic there wasn't much I could do. I didn't even contribute. Just asked a few questions to find out about what they thought, etc. But there was no way to help, because as religious lawyers they didn't think they needed any help.

It may make more sense to have "Ask Omni" on my own site and when there aren't enough questions (is that possible?) coming in to come here and help, using my signature to point people to my site, etc. The reason for this would be I can better control the format and the message presented from my site rather than this one. There would be a consistency in message at my site, here you may get some very conflicting messages, and by helping people directly here I'd be encouraging them to stay in this environment where they will meet conflict and possibly get hurt.

You can bring up negatives in this method too, but in doing so we waste our time looking at the threads of the garment instead of at how beautiful it is when worn.

BioSattva wrote:What if, for example, someone asked you if they could come and camp in your garden and learn from you?

Remember, it's a ditch, and a muddy one at that.

It's not necessary to live in my garden to learn from me. First lesson I'd teach them is how to find their own place. If they completely submit themselves to whatever teaching I'd give, they'd have to go get their own life as their first instruction.

BioSattva wrote:Would you refuse them if you had the capacity to allow such a thing?

Your example of help and my use of it are different.

Helping someone isn't giving them what they ask for or what they want. It's giving them what they need. No one needs to live in my garden to become enlightened or awakened. It's actually counter productive. Any form of Omni-worship would be the exact opposite of enlightenment.

BioSattva wrote:If you would refuse them, even though you had the capacity to allow them, what would be the reason?

Because I will seek to give them what they need, not what they want.

BioSattva wrote:There are many such potential scenarios that someone who is awakened and unconditionally compassionate can face - things like personal property take on a different meaning and value. What if the 'Omni fan club' decided they wanted to pool together and pay off your house and car, and donate you a practice center, for example? This is the kind of beginnings of a Gandhi scenario that I am talking about.

On my last reply I actually typed a couple paragraphs on the handling of money and then deleted it. It was in the context of those who sell "the truth" don't have "the truth" because if they did they'd realize it can't be sold. I'll never charge for services or my time. If someone wants to donate, that's up to them but I'm not even interested in bringing it up.

BioSattva wrote:One would also assume that your awakened state does not mean that you are only concerned with helping people with the details of mindfulness practice - that you are also concerned with helping all people to reach your awakened state - muslims, Christians, Jews, etc.,

Minor correction, it's not my awakened state. I don't own it.

BioSattva wrote:and that you have an unbridled intention to help every sentient being in the world in whatever 'skillful' way that you can.

Yep. And considering my background in Biblical studies I may be well suited for the Christian arena. But it doesn't matter to me. Whatever way it does or doesn't develop, that's the way it will be, so I'll deal with that way at that time.

BioSattva wrote:Have you considered meeting other apparently 'awakened' individuals, like Thich Nhat Hanh, to discuss your experience? Do you want to make sure that this term 'awakened' you are applying to yourself is correct in the context of Zen Buddhism and mindfulness practice?

Oh? It seems you think Zen Buddhism and mindfulness practice is what owns this term "awakened" as if the Thervada-based Buddhism is irrelevant to awakening as are the other forms of Mahayana Buddhism.

Which one was Gautama? Was he Zen? (rhetorical question to emphasize point)

Awakening is as awakening does.

If you're wanting me to present credentials as proof, I'm not interested. A doubter can never be satisfied. This is religion. They always want some one else to give them authority. From whom can you get authority when none have it? Even the awakened don't have that authority, they have realized all authority is form and empty.

If you're wanting me to convince you and you're not doubtful, allow me to help you, and as much as I can help you, believe that.

If you're wanting me to be convinced within myself, I am that already by process of years of seeking, finding, and listening to another awoken master who described exactly as I have experienced it. But really this is something that only one can speak of himself. If you tell me you are awakened, only by listening to you could I tell if you aren't or are for myself. But if I told you you are - that neither makes you awakened or doesn't make you awakened. And if I said you're not awakened, that doesn't make it so.

I'm sure by now you've experienced some enlightenments about how things work (specifically your mind, your personality). You don't need someone to tell you if it is true or not. You've seen it for yourself. And if another said it wasn't true, it wouldn't take it from you, and if another told you it was true, it wouldn't make it any more true within you.

BioSattva wrote:What is your job, may I ask, and how many hours do you work a week? Do you have any hobbies?

My job at present is to type these long letters to you. :^D

Away from this correspondence course in daydreaming about being the next Gandhi and having the world camp out in my garden, in my spare time I'm a linux server admin and working into becoming a lean sigma process engineer.

:^D

BioSattva wrote:I really hope, for your sake, and mine , that you truly have this awakened state, and that you are able to shoulder the social responsibility you are taking upon yourself.

I take no responsibility. One cannot take responsibility. You can only do what is given you to do. No more, no less.

For years I have helped two of my friends who have become students of mine as I've grown. They've grown just steps behind me. I didn't not take any responsibility with them. Only that I would be honest with them about whatever I thought and experienced.

I could easily leave things this way (leave the form, speak to no one). I could be the janitor mopping the floor at the school. Nothing would really matter.

How it has developed so far: I started a twitter account just to take notes, to keep a record of short pithy ideas as I was clarifying them. In doing so I've met some wonderful people and a number of them whom I've been able to help. I've spent time on the phone as well as hours writing emails. As you can see with my writings, "hours" is no exaggeration.

@mindfuleveryday tweeted someone was having questions with emotions coming up after starting mindfulness meditation and asked for any to participate in the discussion, and the rest you know. I just did what was in front of me. And I'll continue doing so.

BioSattva wrote:People come on the internet all the time and declare they are Jesus, Buddha, God, Enlightened, Awakened, whatever, and in all other cases I have seen it has ended in sadness. I am always happy to practice beginner's mind and acceptance however, so welcome again , although I suspect spectacular claims are going to need spectactular evidence for many people.

The cool thing is, I'm not here to prove anything. If someone wants help and I offer advice, they can take it or leave it, their choice. And if they take it, the "evidence" will be something that only they can speak of.

Even in most eastern traditions is the choosing of the teacher and the student. The student must be adequately convinced that this teacher can help them. And the teacher must evaluate the student and decide if they think they can help them. It's a very personal thing. This forum may flatten that out a little, but in reality a subtle form of that will be going on with everyone who comes looking for help and those who offer their help. Both sides deciding if they think a relationship with the other side is beneficial (even if just in the form of writing one answer).

I think in all your writings this is right at the precipice of your thought, perhaps a yet-unspoken thought.

If I may, you spend a lot of time in the future. And not even in your future, you've spent a lot of time in my future. I recommend you track how many times you catch yourself in any other timezone than the present (especially when not thinking about my future). And when you do, just think about why you took that particular time trip. In a short time you'll find a theme or two and how to deal with it will be apparent. And dealing with it will bring you some liberation.

The next observation is this point about proof. It follows if there's a new Gandhi (did he claim to be awakened? or just one who freed India from British rule?) then those who follow personalities will want proof. In my case, I neither want nor seek any follower, much less one who will follow by personality. That would be form, which is empty.

So this leaves the question of why to point out proof as a topic. I think this is the unspoken thought. Maybe you're wondering if I can help you.

I'm happy to be wrong. But on the other hand, right or wrong, I'm happy to help in any way that I can. Just remember, I'll help you with what you need, not with what you say, or with what you want. And the help will probably be more in the form of the muddy ditch rather than the garden.

:^D

BioSattva wrote:PS: About video - it's difficult to skim and quote, and is not so much a discussion format as a dictation format, if you see what I mean. It's difficult to go back and see what has been said. Hopefully you have the time to post here while keeping things as brief as possible.

While true, if it is a video per question, there may not be as much skimming going on. And then we can always get someone to transcribe. I agree that the format of delivery needs to be varied. Text for those that read, video for those who watch, mp3 for those who listen. And maybe even the Omni jogging suite of awakening for those that are kinesthetic learners. (I'll let you determine the pricing and man the tables when I go on world tour)

Hi guys
I've been reading your posts with interest although I don't understand every area you have touched on.

Firstly, I am going to move the threads to the experienced practitioners forum. Beginning the practice is mostly used by community members at the start of their journey. The basis of mindfulness is a very simple idea and I wonder if these more involved posts would be more at home in a different part of the forum.

We also talk a lot about the very individual nature of practice. I'd ask you both to be mindful of that when debating your own opinions about what is and what is not. I know the written word sometimes makes it harder to understand the tone in which a person is writing, some exchanges seem a little heated.

I sincerely hope you will accept these comments in the spirit I offer them to you.
Fiona

FeeHutch wrote:Hi guys
I've been reading your posts with interest although I don't understand every area you have touched on.

I invite you to point them out.

FeeHutch wrote:Firstly, I am going to move the threads to the experienced practitioners forum. Beginning the practice is mostly used by community members at the start of their journey. The basis of mindfulness is a very simple idea and I wonder if these more involved posts would be more at home in a different part of the forum.

We also talk a lot about the very individual nature of practice. I'd ask you both to be mindful of that when debating your own opinions about what is and what is not. I know the written word sometimes makes it harder to understand the tone in which a person is writing, some exchanges seem a little heated.

I'm a little puzzled. I don't think I've written anything from a heated position and I certainly haven't read any response to what I've posted as being heated either.

Maybe you can help me by pointing it out? I'd hate to be the one that's heated and not even know it.

FeeHutch wrote:I sincerely hope you will accept these comments in the spirit I offer them to you.
Fiona

I hope you've accepted what I typed in the past in that same spirit.

Still puzzled,

Omni

No problem Fee, I think I know what you mean.

Omni, thanks for your reply - very lengthy for a forum post (mine tend to be quite long too), but I think I'm seeing where you are coming from more now. Is there any possibility you can keep things a bit more concise? For example when you are giving me advice on my practice - I'm sure you mean well and really want to help me, and yet what you are saying is the same as I have read and picked up in JKZ books and have come across elsewhere. It could save a lot of time if I didn't have to read it again in the middle of our discussion, and it would save you time too.

That said, some of the ways you have put teachings I have heard before was great as a refresher, and provided me with another way to present the methodology to myself as well as others. Seeing how other people make contact and interpret the MBSR methodology is my core source of enjoyment here on this forum, so I am looking forward to seeing more. Yours is particularly unique, so I'm very much enjoying our interactions.

OmniPada wrote:Once a lawyer asked Jesus how to have eternal life, Jesus turned it on him and asked him how he read it. The lawyer replied to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said the man had said well.

I am an atheist these days - just in case you were mistaken that I believed in God, or a 'Son of God', since I mentioned Jesus in a previous post. I tend to think that if he had truly existed that he was a simple human mindfulness teacher - maybe even secular like JKZ, and that others embellished his gospels to fit in with superstitious beliefs. That's just my angle. Do you believe in God?

OmniPada wrote:I'm not interested in living too much in the future, wondering about fame, stardom, being labeled a radical, hated by religious leaders, etc.

If we go out in the snow, we wear a warm jacket. Declaring oneself awakened in the vein of a Buddha will be met by 'cold receptions' in many instances, if history is anything to go on - I am only highlighting this point. It's wise, in my opinion, to look at those who have walked the path before you. In Israel, for example, they don't take kindly to false prophets - declaring oneself as a Messiah and being proven otherwise has serious consequences. It's quite a risky thing you are doing in a global context - mindfully taking heed of that is worthwhile, I think.

OmniPada wrote:

BioSattva wrote:You talk about playing roles as needed, but I am assuming you can't hold back your compassionate nature when someone in serious need of help approaches you.... so you have a 'permanent' role that is unavoidable in that respect, don't you think?

No. For when I sleep, all roles come to an end. Even in some wild extreme scenario that you'd like to draw out I'd still have the privacy of my own life, my own interior which none can intrude upon.

I'm not sure how someone approaching you for help would be intrusion. Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. I was pointing to the situation that if you say you are unconditionally compassionate and that you intend to help anyone, then that role you have created for yourself will be utilised by people. If you refuse them - at any point - in a way which seems to breach that unconditionally compassionate role, then you will not be able to fulfil your role - for example, if you have a spare room in your house and a homeless guy knocks on your door, it seems you can't refuse - or any equivalent scenario. It seems we all have an inherent instinct for unconditional compassion installed when we were in our mother's womb - something JKZ refers to - every human has a 'radar' for it, so to speak.

OmniPada wrote:Plus, I'll have you handing out the t-shirts keeping them all busy at the Omni-swag table. Just kidding.

OmniPada wrote:You need to start getting serious about your practice and spend as much time being mindful as you do dreaming out my future, or you'll be of no use to me or the rest of the world.

I think I've been practicing mindfulness when considering the consequences of a person 'going live' with an awakened Buddha-type state in the world. I have my own visions for how I would like to help others in the world, so this is all part of seriously taking up the challenge - one can plan and predict - mindfully. There is a difference between planning a trip to the seaside and fantasizing about splashing around in the water. I see myself as a cheerleader on the side as you are doing your thing, and trying to help by shouting out "watch out, it seems there's a potential obstacle!" - I fully support what you are doing; it's very brave, and I want to see it all work out. Please see my pointers as pointers - mindfully exploring your plan to help others realise your awakened state.

OmniPada wrote:There would be a consistency in message at my site, here you may get some very conflicting messages, and by helping people directly here I'd be encouraging them to stay in this environment where they will meet conflict and possibly get hurt.

It's OK - we have mindful Mods for scanning content here on this forum. I encourage all posters interested in secular mindfulness to stay on this forum - I don't think posters will necessarily meet conflict as long as we are all ultimately defaulting to tried and tested MBSR methodology. Your situation seems to be a special one within the MBSR framework, since those creating and dispensing the core teachings have not declared themselves 'fully awakened' people who never get angry anymore, as far as I know. As yet, such people only exist within religious frameworks, as opposed to secular ones.

OmniPada wrote:

What if, for example, someone asked you if they could come and camp in your garden and learn from you?

Remember, it's a ditch, and a muddy one at that.

It's not necessary to live in my garden to learn from me. First lesson I'd teach them is how to find their own place. If they completely submit themselves to whatever teaching I'd give, they'd have to go get their own life as their first instruction.

So people need to have their own place first in order to learn how to become awakened from you, and having a place of one's own is having one's own life? If so, that is very interesting.

This seems to be your first diversion from that which Gautama Buddha preached. Maybe this could be the future of mindful awakening for the modern world? Having one's own life is having a house, and then one is ready to become awakened - the Omni-way.

OmniPada wrote:Helping someone isn't giving them what they ask for or what they want. It's giving them what they need. No one needs to live in my garden to become enlightened or awakened. It's actually counter productive.

Nearly all the Buddha's closest disciples lived in his 'garden' so to speak. It was a very efficient way for them to learn. Can you expand a little on how it is counterproductive in your situation?

OmniPada wrote:

BioSattva wrote:Have you considered meeting other apparently 'awakened' individuals, like Thich Nhat Hanh, to discuss your experience? Do you want to make sure that this term 'awakened' you are applying to yourself is correct in the context of Zen Buddhism and mindfulness practice?

Oh? It seems you think Zen Buddhism and mindfulness practice is what owns this term "awakened" as if the Thervada-based Buddhism is irrelevant to awakening as are the other forms of Mahayana Buddhism.

Apologies for the lack of clarity - I was framing it more in the MBSR tradition, having apparently mainly come from Zen Buddhist teachers and teachings, and yet I did include "mindfulness practice" in my question - of course that can incorporate the mindfulness practice found in Theravada et al, and apparently even non-Buddhism, like Hesychasm, for example.

So how about the question about meeting other apparently awakened individuals - those who have been "reading the book" in their awakened status longer than you, and are therefore an experiential resource regarding your present awakened state? I think if I was to consider myself in such an awakened state, and since MBSR doesn't really seem to offer other awakened individuals, I would go to meet those who appear to see things in the same way I do. Getting advice from them could be incredibly useful - this is beyond verification, more about seeking guidance from another who has been 'doing the job' longer.

OmniPada wrote:If you're wanting me to present credentials as proof, I'm not interested. A doubter can never be satisfied. This is religion.

But MBSR isn't a religion.

OmniPada wrote:If I may, you spend a lot of time in the future. And not even in your future, you've spent a lot of time in my future. I recommend you track how many times you catch yourself in any other timezone than the present (especially when not thinking about my future). And when you do, just think about why you took that particular time trip. In a short time you'll find a theme or two and how to deal with it will be apparent. And dealing with it will bring you some liberation.

Again there is an apparent difference between mindfully predicting and planning, and actually daydreaming and fantasising. What do you think about that?

OmniPada wrote:Maybe you're wondering if I can help you.

Everyone helps me - all of the time!

You are helping me a lot by clarifying your position on various things. As far as I am concerned, mindfulness practice filtered through MBSR teachings is clear enough in itself for me - it has been working for me, and all I can see is the practice continually unfolding me into the future (a mindful prediction ).

I enjoy reading other people's take on it, and enjoying, sharing, and celebrating the teachings. It's all here already - we just have to do it, as the advice goes. Speaking together here about our regular mindfulness practices and the contexts surrounding that seems to improve the experience and the practice in general.

Thank you for that post Bio

What Fee said.
Spot on.
Jon

This has all been very strange.