What are you going to do now?

[BioSattva]

Here is a relevant quote from the German-born U.S. theoretical physicist Albert Einstein (1879-1955), quoted in: Philipp Frank, Einstein: His Life and Times (1947):

The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mystical. It is the power of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms- this knowledge, this feeling, is at the center of true religiousness. In this sense, and in this sense only, I belong to the rank of devoutly religious men.

Ok, so Einstein wasn't a qualified theologian, but it shows how one can divide personal 'spiritual' leanings and secular practices. Einstein wasn't a spiritual teacher - he was a physicist. His scientific practice was and is incredibly inspiring to many scientists, some of whom no doubt were and are atheists, and it is possible to separate his mystical leanings from the accomplishments of his raw scientific practice. Whether we deem his mystical leanings to attribute high value to the way he practised science is a personal notion that we needn't make explicit unless we want to, and needn't assume that everyone else does or should agree with us on some 'factual' basis.

That's my take on things.

It's interesting Einstein's focus on emotions - like we should actively seek emotional experiences as part of our lives. It seems to me that true happiness; beyond excitement - peaceful joy - is more like an absence or distance of or from emotions, rather than emotions 'colouring' our cognition. This is in line with scientific research on the 'flow' state - "in the zone", so to speak. This is from the positive psychology website The Pursuit of Happiness:

This loss of self-consciousness that happens when you are completely absorbed in an activity – intellectual, social, or physical – is described in contemporary psychology as a state of Flow. In order for a Flow state to occur, you must see the activity as voluntary, enjoyable (intrinsically motivating), and it must require skill and be challenging (but not too challenging) with clear goals towards success. You must feel as though you have control and receive immediate feedback with room for growth. Interestingly, a Flow state is characterized by the absence of emotion – a complete loss of self-consciousness –however, in retrospect, the Flow activity may be described as enjoyable and even exhilarating!

[BioSattva]

I didn't catch this post previously, but I want to tie up the 'loose ends' here.

you had said I thought I was superior, etc.

No I haven't said that. This habit of saying people say things when they haven't is becoming a bit of a signature for you on this forum, Omni. Please do try to reference correctly, otherwise it looks like an attempt to tweak and manipulate the reality we are all sharing here.

read your second paragraph

You're really in sad shape. You say that I think I'm more than TNH (or maybe Adya, kinda hard to tell which one you're referring to), etc.

How can you not know your own words?

Why not quote me directly? I never used the words "superior", let alone "you think you are superior", which sounds more aggressive than what I posted, I think. Re-wording what someone has said to sound more aggressive, rather than fetching and posting their actual words can easily be construed as manipulative.

And now you think I'm in sad shape...that's your perspective and you're entitled to it, of course. I maintain that all we would need to do here is continue communicating in an open, friendly, equal, and logical manner - no need for painting on negative states. Think about it - is that really a way to help a situation? Is this the kind of thing you will say to confused, depressed people in your mindfulness center? Personally I think it would amplify any negative psychology already taking place. I mean imagine any clinical psychotherapist saying to a client, "You're really in sad shape". I'm all for people recognising the reality of their situation, but telling them directly: "You're totally mad and confused, now listen up sad case..." seems a lot more abrupt than asking how they feel and leading them back into their body beyond judgements of good and bad, sane and mad - back into just 'what is'.

I can happily repeat and reframe all of this in every post as many times as you need to hear it

exactly, you have to keep refraiming everything you've said. Were it framed correctly the first time there would be no need.

I was saying the same thing every time I reframed it but you seemed unable to comprehend it - I was doing it to help you.

As you said "it's a big knot" and you can't unravel it.

Nope - again attributing words to me that I didn't say,

It's getting rich. You really are delusional.

roughly 14th paragraph you type

Here's the quote:

None of these are true in the context of this thread from my perspective - there is a huge tangle here, and there isn't enough time to unravel it - hopefully it will come loose by itself as we continue to discuss things.

And there we go - no "knot" - a tangle is looser than a knot. All these 'tweaks' can build up into a very different picture than actually exists.

And yet another declaration as to my grip on reality. I heard you the first time.

Good-bye Bio. It started out nice, but it appears your whole goal wasn't to learn anything except how long you could keep me going.

It did start out nice, didn't it? I presented to you in my first post on this thread the following statement:

"I really hope, for your sake, and mine , that you truly have this awakened state, and that you are able to shoulder the social responsibility you are taking upon yourself. People come on the internet all the time and declare they are Jesus, Buddha, God, Enlightened, Awakened, whatever, and in all other cases I have seen it has ended in sadness."

Yet another experience to add to the collection. I hope you manage to meet Adyashanti, and even Thich Nhat Hanh at some point. Check out the story of Master Seung Sahn - Jon Kabat-Zinn's main Zen teacher - there are videos of him on youtube preaching that everyone should get Enlightenment. He slept with his students and caused a lot of upset and many people following him left - just like Adyashanti's teacher's Zen teacher Taizan Maezumi Roshi, and Shunryu Suzuki Roshi's Dharma heir Roshi Baker (whose practice was eventually 'straightened out' by Thich Nhat Hanh). This has undermined and tarnished the whole Zen Enlightenment relationship with mindfulness, in my opinion.

I've been in a Zen meditation hall sitting for long stints of meditation in a large circle in the room with men and women mixed, where participating students have been instructed to turn to the person on their left and begin massaging their aching body - from the neck down to including the buttocks. Now ask yourself what would happen if a man went out on the street and began offering women free buttock-massages? The police would likely be called. However, as my girlfriend and myself were informed by the 'more Enlightened' aging woman leading the practice at that time - "Everyone is a Buddha when in the zen meditation hall". It's a slippery slope - I've heard first-hand stories which make that one pale in comparison regarding Osho's group activities in India. I think the West needs to snap out of this romantic, fuzzy relationship with 'spirituality' and shallow 'good vibes', otherwise they'll be finding themselves part of something incredibly twisted and dark before they know it. I have plenty more experiential stories from my adventures in Zen and 'spirituality'. I was born into this 'sexy hippy' stuff.

This is why I labour the emphasis on regulated clinical settings and respect for such things lying at the core of effective mindfulness practice and discussion.

It seems that this can all be laid to rest now. Thanks again for allowing this forum to witness this scenario so early on and for 'putting yourself out here', Omni. Again I still maintain that you have a large heart - as did Seung Sahn, Maezumi, and as does Richard Baker. That doesn't mean I will be placing any faith in the Enlightenment you or any of them are or have been preaching until they have been rigorously tested and analyzed by psychoanalysts as to their proposed extraordinary state of existence. I don't rule it out, but the fact that proper science has not yet been involved seems to speak for itself.

All the best as usual,

Bio.

[rara]

^Blown way out of proportion. Completely off topic here^

[JonW]

For me, Vixine put it best a few days ago.
"This has all been very strange."

[Cheesus]

For me, Vixine put it best a few days ago.
"This has all been very strange."

It reminds me of an experience I once had on acid.

We all found a marrow by some allotments and decided to take it with us. As the hours progressed the marrow grew to a larger and larger presence in everyone's conscious. It began to dominate discussion. 'But it's just a marrow', some people argued. 'But its not just a marrow anymore, how can it be' another would retort. Ultimately we all ended up sitting in this medieval stone circle in some botanical gardens in my home town, staring at this marrow. This situation, my friends, is that marrow. Very strange indeed.

[Gareth]

It reminds me of an experience I once had on acid.

We all found a marrow by some allotments and decided to take it with us. As the hours progressed the marrow grew to a larger and larger presence in everyone's conscious. It began to dominate discussion. 'But it's just a marrow', some people argued. 'But its not just a marrow anymore, how can it be' another would retort. Ultimately we all ended up sitting in this medieval stone circle in some botanical gardens in my home town, staring at this marrow. This situation, my friends, is that marrow. Very strange indeed.

[JonW]

I once scoffed down a large hash cake in Amsterdam and my mind went completely doolally. I made the mistake of going to a restaurant and ordering lobster which grew to the size of a bungalow in my imagination.
Never eaten lobster since.

[rara]

Rofl. Just about sums it up

[BioSattva]

Don't even get me started....

[FeeHutch]

I had a very odd dream about a very large marrow last night. Someone was playing Rock Lobster too. I swear there were no drugs (of the illegal variety anyway) involved and I am holding you responsible Mr W!