Thoughts vs Truth

[JonW]

There's probably as many different definitions of love as there are people on the planet. 'Twas ever thus.
The dog barks and the caravan moves on.
Jon

[MiM]

Yes, sorry for creating a possibly unnecessary diversion there. But if you indulge me a little bit more, I have tried, but failed, to get my head around this line by Peter:

A mindfulness practitioner should know like no other that something as superficial as someone's actions doesn't say anything about someone's feelings or motivations.

Our thoughts, as Jon likes to quote Kabat-Zinn "are only secretions of our minds". That may be a bit strongly put but certainly it tells us that our thoughts are not the truth. And our feelings, while certainly internally important for us, hardly constitute truth, in any real sense. So, as far as I can see, the only place we can truly mindfully start looking, if we are in search for any kind of truth is our actions. With the obvious caveat, that to fully understand our actions we need to understand at least the basics of the thoughts and feelings that lies behind them too.

Our actions are, after all, what is really happening here and now. As such, I cannot understand why they should be called "superficial", at least not by a mindfulness practitioner. Are (thoughts), feelings and motivations that do not lead to any kind of actions meaningful at all?

[fabiG]

I've just stumbled across this thread and find the discussion very intriguing and familiar to me, so I thought I contribute to the thread...

such as how can I know I love my current girlfriend, which is an immensely painful thought.

This is something with which I struggled immensely in the last year. I had familiar thoughts such as "I'm not able to love someone", and especially "I won't enjoy the relationship I have because I don't live in the present moment in that instance"...As I'm writing his I feel these thoughts are completely irrational, but sometimes I do think exactly like that.

love is rather a verb

Made me put Massive Attack - Teardrop on my playlist...But I wouldn't reduce love to just a verb. I think it includes actions towards a person, which makes it a verb, but there is something deeper, more profound behind it because, partly, you act towards not-beloved persons sometimes similarly as to your partner but for different motivations

There's probably as many different definitions of love as there are people on the planet

As social scientist I have an exquisite desire for defining things, as above, but, anyway, in this case this is the point. And I do believe that this fact makes, on one hand, answering the question (how do I know I love someone) impossible, which, on the other hand, provides a liberalization because, well if you don't know the answer you don't need to find a way to it.

I think that something else plays a role here, too for me. When I was visiting a seminar this week, the lecturer stated that "social scientists must be very critical, question everything, but sometimes this is not adequate in other situations." (hell, she was right about me). Which made me realize in a more general sense that in the past I had been questioning my own luck and happiness. I always found things to question myself or even other persons, or the relationship because I thought it felt wrong and that I don't deserve it. And ultimately then, from my perspective, it's a question of self-compassion and self-loving. After all, you've got a right to enjoy your life, to accept yourself and your relationship as it is...Of course it is just my perspective. For me, when I reassured myself that I'm entitled to be happy, I didn't think about my love to that other person but just accepted it as it is and enjoyed good company... other cases are different, of course, but I do think that quite a lot of people a struggling with this...

[JonW]

It could be argued that one of the reasons we are alive is to discover for ourselves what love is. And isn't that definition forever changing?
JW