Stuck on week 5

[stavros16]

Hi guys I'm new to the website, my name is Dave. I'm wondering if anyone can help as I seem to have hit a wall with my mindfulness practice.

I was recommended the book Mindfulness - Finding Peace in a Frantic World by my doctor as I have been suffering from chronic anxiety and depression as she puts it. It's an 8 week course and I have tried to follow practices on the accompanying CD exactly as instructed so far.

Week 5 basically talks about how the previous 4 weeks have been all been leading up to this point and this is where it all comes together. It asks that when a thought comes into my head I should concentrate on the associated physical sensation in my body. This is where I have come unstuck because as negative and unpleasant as a thought may be, I am in a stress free environment at home whilst doing this practice, so I am physically relaxed and therefore feel no bodily sensations, just the unpleasant thought.

It feels like a lot of pressure to get this practice right as this is an important step but I just don't understand. Is this a critical part of mindfulness as I have been led to believe and if so, has anybody else struggled here?

[DonQ]

Hi stavros16,
stavros16 wrote:

“It asks that when a thought comes into my head I should concentrate on the associated physical sensation in my body. This is where I have come unstuck because as negative and unpleasant as a thought may be, I am in a stress free environment at home whilst doing this practice, so I am physically relaxed and therefore feel no bodily sensations, just the unpleasant thought.
“It feels like a lot of pressure to get this practice right as this is an important step but I just don't understand. Is this a critical part of mindfulness as I have been led to believe and if so, has anybody else struggled here?”

-Hmm…there are 4 steps of mindfulness practice. First, using our bodies (breathing/body movement/physical sensation etc.) to stop our thoughts. This step is a must. It’s a very foundation to next step. And it could be said that this is a whole step that includes all another 3 steps, too.
The second step, when we have firm foundation of the first step, we will be able to watch/observe deeper into our own minds (thought/feeling/ dharma etc.) I will not bother you with its detail here. We can compare it with learning to drive/swim. The first step is all we need to know/learn. Then, another steps needs more practice/experience. We have to really drive our cars into the road (in mindfulness practice, it means, we have to analysis deeper and deeper into our own minds.)
Hope this helps.

[JonW]

Hmm.
This is not about stopping our thoughts. Neither are there four steps of mindfulness practice. No steps are a must. Nor is it remotely comparable to learning to swim or drive.
I fundamentally disagree with Don Q's post.
Don, would you like to clarify your position on these points?
Dave, please allow me to collect my thoughts and get back to you with a considered and hopefully useful response.
All best, Jon

[Gareth]

Absolutely what Jon said. This is not about stopping thoughts. You cannot stop thoughts. Mindfulness practice is about learning to be with all your thoughts, whether they be positive or negative.

If the thoughts are producing no physical sensation in your body, then so be it. Thoughts very rarely produce an identifiable sensation in my body either (sometimes they do). I think I've read somewhere that in these situations you can focus on the lack of sensation.

It might be nice if an experienced practitioner/teacher looks at this. Maybe someone could drop Suryacitta a message or an email. He has already said that he is happy to be informed about topics like this.

Above all, remember to go easy on yourself. This is a difficult thing to get your head around at first.

[DonQ]

Hi Jon and Gareth,
Are we talking about mindfulness in Buddhism? If not, I'm sorry about my post.
But as far as I know about mindfulness in Buddhism, here it is:
Satipatthana: foundations of mindfulness
1. Kayanupassana: contemplation of the body; mindfulness as regards the body
2. Vedananupassana: contemplation of feelings; mindfulness as regards feelings
3. Cittanupassana: contemplation of mind; mindfulness as regards mental conditions
4. Dhammanupassana: contemplation of mind-objects; mindfulness as regards ideas
I apologize that I'm not good at writing in English. So even I want to say something more but I cannot. And to assure my responsibility for my post, I've been practicing mindfulness for more than 30 years now (if you believe in my honesty) and I'm a native Thai.

[FeeHutch]

Hi Don
No we are not talking about mindfulness in Buddhism. Everyday Mindfulness is focused around secular mindfulness using the work of authors such as Jon Kabat-Zin, Mark Williams and Danny Penman among others. I agree with everything Jon and Gareth have said. Mindfulness is about being present in the moment and accepting what we find there.

In response to your thoughts stavros16, I've found if the sensation isn't there it isn't there. We talk a lot about not striving for anything but what is here in the moment so you aren't doing anything wrong if that is a cause for anxiety.

I also second the suggestion to contact Suryacitta, he is very experienced and helpful and stick around and keep talking to us too

[JonW]

Hi DonQ.
Thanks for the clarification.
As Fee points out, we're very much committed to mindfulness in the secular sense on this forum.
If you'd like to investigate further, please feel free to browse this site. There's many great posts that should prove useful. For reading further, I'd highly recommend Jon Kabat-Zinn's Full Catastrophe Living or Finding Peace In A Frantic World by Danny Penman and Mark Williams.
My best, Jon

[piedwagtail91]

without wanting this to sound bad,i think this possibly shows the difference between trying to 'do it yourself' and going to a class with a trained teacher/ facilitator.
at a class a teacher could have answered your concerns there and then and explained and guided you.
if you can get on a course in your area i would really recommend it. they can do an assessment to see if you are 'in the right place' to do a course.
coming to this forum is probably the next best thing.
thoughts don't usually cause sensations in the body, but a thought that causes an emotion will also cause a sensation in the body.
it's the emotion ('feelings' which is why we call emotions feelings) that makes itself known in the body.
i know it seems like playing with words and that seems to happen a lot in mindfulness.
to get the sensations in the body to work with, you need to bring to mind and experience /relive (don't like that word) the situation/circumstance to bring back the emotions that go with it.

being in a stress free place is probably best for this practice.
i always try to get people very calm and comfortable with themselves when i've led a working with difficulty practice.
bearing in mind that 5 weeks doing something new like meditation isn't a long time.
i usually get people to bring a sense of 'playful curiosity' to normal body sensations such as touch, pressure (body in contact with chair/floor type pressure) and contact for a good 5 minutes before moving on to the emotion and experiencing and working with it.
that way they're not feeling stressed when they bring a stressful unpleasant situation/experience to mind.

it's always a bit tricky to find the right sort of situation, too trivial and it won't be strong enough. too difficult and it could possibly be damaging. no one wants to be traumatised. so we always explain that before session 5 starts.

the skills learnt in the other sessions, becoming aware of sensations in the body from the body scan, working with the breath, working with mind wandering ,feeling the slightly more intense sensations in the body from mindful movement, letting go of judgement, criticism and the wish for things to be other than they are do come together to help you deal with difficult emotions in session 5.
then it's like peeling away the layers (thoughts) to get out of the head and into the body, slowly and compassionately.

as has been said sometimes we don't notice any sensations.
but don't give up at the first 'scan' go back for another look.

i did a 35 minute sitting practice this morning, body breath, sounds,thoughts , emotions, breath.
when i got to emotions i felt that i wasn't aware of any experiencing any emotions.
i searched around the body for any signs and still wasn't aware of anything.
then i realised that i was becoming aware of sensations, i was relaxed, warm , cosy and felt really light, so decided that that more or less ticked the box of contented/ contentment.
they were very subtle sensations barely noticeable at first.

not the same as working with difficulty i know, just trying to show , not very well perhaps!, how subtle some sensations can be.

depending where you are with depression and anxiety, you may not be able to experience emotions strongly.
i had the emotional range of a matchstick when i did session 5. i'd flattened them out to stop getting hurt. i reckoned that if i never felt happy then feeling sad wouldn't hurt so much. life was very flat and emotions were pointless.
a lot of people can develop that sort of defence.
so it may not happen straight away.

don't be afraid to keep coming back to the forum, there are a lot of good knowledgeable people on here.

[stavros16]

Hi guys thanks for your quick responses and helpful suggestions, means a lot

I understand now that you can't force these sensations and if they aren't apparent then don't beat yourself up, just accept that there are no sensations. It would have been helpful if the book I'm reading had given this alternative. I am trying to do it all to the letter of the law and I know it's more about understanding the essence of the practice but I struggle to think like this.

I have started to question recently whether mindfulness is even for me. I haven't come to any realization yet or felt any sort of benefit from doing the practices. Of course I may be a little naive and am expecting too much too soon but realistically I can't keep going for months and months with no progress. I don't think anyone would follow something blindly for months on end without progressing in some way. Has it taken others a long time and a lot of practice before they begin to see the benefits of mindfulness in the way they think/live?

I think my problem is and this may be a big problem with learning to be mindful, that my brain thinks in a very logical and analytical way. I analyse everything far too much in my life (thoughts in particular) and a concept like mindfulness is very hard for me to grasp. I've never been a spiritual person and definitely focus on scientific and mathematical solutions to problems.

Although I was very open-minded going into this journey and I wanted to 'get it' so much, a part of me has always thought that it won't work for someone with my mindset. I'm probably being a little naive again with this viewpoint but does this make sense to anyone? Is mindfulness truly for everyone?!

[calm_one]

Hi Stavros,

I am/was exactly the same as you, I found following the book hard. During my CBT my therapist thought mindfulness was the best thing for me, and I've been quite lucky in getting referred to an NHS 8 week course. Even though this is secondary care they made an exception.

You should see if you can get referred too. Or maybe even look for paid for courses?

I think the fact you've stuck at it for 5 weeks you and I are very alike. I feel mindfulness can be great, I just get a bit lost following the book.

Can I also reccomend headspace too. I quite like doing that too.

Also maybe trying attending a yoga class?