Difficulty getting to the core

[Cheesus]

Hi guys.

I'm new here so first I'd just like to introduce myself. I am a 22 year old guy living in the North of England. I have a history of severe anxiety amongst other health problems.

I have been trying to practice mindfulness on and off for about a year now. My issue is that when I get into the rhythm of a regular practice (using the breath as an anchor and being receptive to whatever arises), and when I try to apply being mindful to everyday life outside of practice, I often find that I can wind up becoming alienated from myself and my environment.

I think part of my problem is that I can't get out of the mindset that 'I am practicing to become calmer and feel more connected to myself and my environment'. Obviously mindfulness is not really supposed to do these things, rather it is only there to be what it is. However I can't help but see myself striving for something whenever I practice mindfulness and it is creating a deep tension. Sometimes when I practice, and particularly when I practice walking meditation, I'll feel a deep connection. However if I cannot attain that state I'll scold myself and become frustrated.

I know this is not what I should be doing, but it is what I am doing, and when I try to counteract it I see myself getting into a sort of mental battle with myself. When this happens I get tied up in knots and wonder if I should accept the mental battle or try to get rid of it or whatever. I'll end up going around and around in circles trying to establish what my attitude towards something should be. It's very easy to say 'mindfulness is simply awareness or acceptance', but actually when it gets down to the nitty gritty it appears to become, to me anyway, actually very complicated.I think part of my problem is that I have cultivated excellent awareness without also cultivating a sense of acceptance.

I think I need some proper guidance with mindfulness, and I am on the waiting list to see a psychotherapist who basis his therapy in mindfulness. He is also a teacher at a local buddhist centre.

Has anyone experienced something similar?
Does anyone have any suggestions on a course of action whilst I am waiting to see this therapist?

Thanks, amigos.
Cheesus

[JonW]

Hi Cheesus,
Welcome to the forum.
Please make yourself at home here.
You didn't mention if you'd followed the 8-week course, as devised by Jon Kabat-Zinn so I'm assuming you haven't.
When I embarked on the adventure that is mindfulness I firstly followed said course in a book by Mark Williams & Danny Penman entitled "Mindfulness: A practical guide to finding peace in a frantic world". You might find, as I did that, that the carefully structured course provides a smooth way into the practice. The book is currently going for £8.25 including postage on Amazon. Best purchase the actual book (rather than Kindle edition) as it comes with a CD of guided meditation that are extremely useful, in my experience.
All good things, Jon

[Cheesus]

Hi Jon

Thank you very much for your reply.

I haven't been following that particular course, no. I have however read Wherever You Go, There You Are a number of times. Moreover I am using a podcast to guide my practice.

I think perhaps now I might have difficulty taking my practice back to the start as I will not be approaching it as a complete beginner and so I am uncertain that it will help me to untie the knots that I have gotten myself into. I can't quite communicate the extent to which I am tied up here without launching on an incredibly lengthy tirade. A lot of it relates to the fact that I am often very uncomfortable with my own thoughts and feelings. I think mindfulness will be great for me as it can assist me come to terms with what is, but it's just the path feels like it is full of a number of complicated obstacles that I need guidance in dealing with.

Having said that, I do think there is a lot of merit in the idea of getting back to basics, so I will certainly look into the course that you have recommended. I think perhaps I have used that book and CD before but didn't follow it through. I will have a root through my books and see what I can find.

Many thanks
Cheesus

[JonW]

My pleasure.
Difficult with feelings and thoughts is what brought me to mindfulness in the first place - along with an assortment of setbacks that arrived all at once.
I started reading the Williams/Penman book, then found that an actual 8-week course was about to start in my town (Brighton). So I read the book and did the group course all at once. That worked fabulously for me, giving me all the guidance I needed.
You mentioned being on the waiting list for a mindfulness-based psychotherapist and that's encouraging news. One of my close friends works in that area and I've heard it can really work for people.
In the meantime, have you checked out if there's any mindfulness courses running in your area? I found the group dynamic tremendously helpful to my practice.
Also, you mentioned that you practice regularly. Would that be daily?
I don't think there's any hard and fast rules about how long one should practice each day. But Jon Kabat-Zinn, the world's leading authority on mindfulness, strongly recommends 45 minutes a day during those first eight weeks. I abided by that and found it surprisingly easy to ground myself in the practice. I still practice daily, sometimes 20 minutes, sometimes an hour, depending on how I'm feeling. But I aim for some practice every day no matter how busy I am.
Going back to the start might be a good idea. But it's only a hunch on my part. Other forum members might have different opinions.
But I wish you well.
All good things, Jon

[Vixine]

Hi Cheesus,

I think I understand the challenge you are feeling right now - anxiety causes us to over-think things and it can get very confusing (I have had anxiety at times in my life as well). I think your idea of seeing a therapist who has a specialty in mindfulness is a good one. In the meantime, I agree with Jon's recommendation - if you are having difficulty, then it is good to go back to the basics. You might find that the introduction to mindfulness carries a whole new meaning now that you have been practicing and running into obstacles. Do you practice the lovingkindness meditation? That might be good as well, since, as you said it sounds like you are being hard on yourself.

I also have difficulty letting go of striving. It is something I have to work on every time I practice. I have actually wondered - why would anyone begin to practice mindfulness if they weren't striving for something or other? It seems that to some extent, some striving is very natural and we all do it. The practice then is to notice that, and accept it, and go back to the breath. It is so simple but so difficult to do!

I have also found a lot of help in listening to the Audio Dharma podcast - is that the one you are using? If not, they can be found here: http://www.audiodharma.org/
You can scroll through and find talks on topics that seem related to what you are experiencing. I found the recent talk called "Working with Judgement" by Vinnie Ferraro on 3/18/13 to be really awesome. It is not just about judgement but also about letting go of striving, and of feeling like you have to somehow be different before you can really truly get into practice, and about the challenges that we face when we begin to be mindful. Sounds like it could be relevant to you.

Hopefully you'll find some more help on this forum too.

[JonW]

"You might find that the introduction to mindfulness carries a whole new meaning now that you have been practicing and running into obstacles."

That's an excellent point.
I also meant to say that going back to basics would reintroduce you to the full complement of mindfulness practices: sitting meditations, body scan, mindful movement (light yoga) etc.
The 8-week course, as taught by Williams and Penman, introduces you to those practices step by step. You might just find that one of the practices really clicks with you. For me, it was the body scan that made me realise that mindfulness was doing me the world of good.
Thanks for the Ferraro podcast tip, Vixine. I'll be sure to check that out.

[Cheesus]

Jon, my daily practice would usually be 10 to 20 minutes in the morning and then again in the evening. Having said that, I am currently struggling with a number of physical health difficulties in addition to my chronic mental health difficulties. As a result I sometimes find it difficult to sit for that long as often I find myself getting dizzy and that my concentration is extremely weak. Often I will also practice in action rather than in sitting, if that makes sense. So I will go for a walk and try to be mindful of the world around me and my walking etc.

I recently attended a meditation practice at a Theravada Buddhist centre. Unfortunately I was really not well enough to go on the day in question and had to leave half way through as I was finding the experience extremely uncomfortable. Moreover, I am not sure that I am entirely comfortable with the Theravada approach and would probably prefer something more secular for the time being (though I am interested in Buddhism and strongly aline myself to its philosophical principals). I think there is another group starting soon elsewhere so I will have a look into that.

Vixine, I often wonder too about striving. I still can't really get my head around the fact that I am essentially striving not to strive. I want to let go of my desire to alter my relationship to myself and my environment, but I find that in wanting to let go of that desire I am essentially trying to alter that relationship! And so exemplified here is a knot I tie myself into!

I also think that judging is something I need to work on. I am constantly measuring my experiences and my ability to practice mindfulness. I am incredibly aware of myself, but it's an awareness that I do not have a properly cultivated relationship with.

I have practice loving kindness in the past, however I have not done so recently. This too is something that I want to begin again. However, I haven't yet found a guided meditation that I can relate to very well. I will have a look at Audio Dharma. At the moment I am listening to meditations produced by Meditation Oasis.

Thank you both very much for your thoughtful responses.
Cheesus

[Jenna]

Maybe worth checking out the mindful way depression. It has been helping me a fair bit.

[OmniPada]

Hi guys.

Greetings.

I'm new here so first I'd just like to introduce myself. I am a 22 year old guy living in the North of England. I have a history of severe anxiety amongst other health problems.

I have been trying to practice mindfulness on and off for about a year now. My issue is that when I get into the rhythm of a regular practice (using the breath as an anchor and being receptive to whatever arises), and when I try to apply being mindful to everyday life outside of practice, I often find that I can wind up becoming alienated from myself and my environment.

I think part of my problem is that I can't get out of the mindset that 'I am practicing to become calmer and feel more connected to myself and my environment'. Obviously mindfulness is not really supposed to do these things, rather it is only there to be what it is.

Exactly. So at these times, focus on what is. And what is? You've already told us, the feelings of alienation. Since that is arising, you focus on that. Later boredom is arising, focus on that. Then excitement is arising, focus on that. Then judgmentalism for having taken so long to become excited is arising, so focus on that.

In each of these you don't give yourself to it, you observe it. It's like the difference between being in the emotion and standing outside of it looking at it. Ask yourself why this is arising. Look into it deeply. Understand it's causes. Sit with the sensation of feelings that each has - "this is exactly what alienation feels like" you'll be able to identify the body sensations related with each of the states you're in.

Later as you go through your day suddenly you'll realize you're having one of those sensations and you can pause and ask yourself what's happening, what are you thinking, that is causing this sensation to now arise. You'll realize you're "in" the emotion and your awareness of it will help you to step out of it and just observe it just like you did when you were mindfully practicing.

However I can't help but see myself striving for something whenever I practice mindfulness and it is creating a deep tension. Sometimes when I practice, and particularly when I practice walking meditation, I'll feel a deep connection. However if I cannot attain that state I'll scold myself and become frustrated.

Notice in this description how you're placing yourself in the deep connection feeling. This is the subtle problem. That you're identifying these feelings as factual reflection of reality. They are actually not factual. Consider for a moment your connection with your surroundings. You're 100% surrounded by reality. You're completely immersed in it. Now when you're walking you "really really feel it" and when you're sitting you "really really don't feel it" - but the fact that you're 100% within reality never changed. Only your feeling/perception of it. Bottom line, you can't go by these feelings, they're all fabricated by mind and body. Instead of accepting them as a factual reflection of what's really going on, view them as your body/mind interpretation of what's going on and just know the interpreter is broke. And spend your time looking at why you feel more connected at this moment than at those moments when you felt alienated.

I know this is not what I should be doing, but it is what I am doing, and when I try to counteract it I see myself getting into a sort of mental battle with myself. When this happens I get tied up in knots and wonder if I should accept the mental battle or try to get rid of it or whatever.

You just realize "this is mental battling, this is what that feels like" Instead of buying in that it's oh-so-real, just observe it as a phenomena.

I had a particular moment of clarity when reading the Satipatthana sutta, section III on viewing the mind as phenomena. Summarizing it says that whenever you have greed, anger, delusion, etc in the mind that you say "this is the mind with greed/anger/etc". And as such you're just recognizing it as a mental state, not "me". Suddenly how mind is just phenomena was so clear to me and my very next thought was "and this is the mind with enlightenment".

And you too, when you suddenly realize that whatever state you're sensing is just "mind with greed/anger/etc" - then you'll have the same enlightenment and also be free from being trapped within those sensations every time.

I'll end up going around and around in circles trying to establish what my attitude towards something should be.

This is the opposite of acceptance. Acceptance is key. Don't try to change anything, seek only to see clearly and understand. The changing will happen on it's own. You're finding you can't change these states with the very will and mind that is creating them. It's like the fox who says he'll guard himself while in the hen house.

Notice how your inability to control and change only brings more unwanted frustration that you now want to control and change. Realize that if it's frustration you want to eliminate, then any activity you perform that is creating frustration needs to be stopped, even if you can't see how that activity isn't the best thing to do, stopping it decreases the frustration.

Try just observing. This will be freeing you. Even if you spend the whole time observing that alienated feeling - the fact that you don't identify with it and see it as just another phenomena that happens will free you. You'll be happy you felt alienation the entire meditation. (what a twist, no?)

It's very easy to say 'mindfulness is simply awareness or acceptance', but actually when it gets down to the nitty gritty it appears to become, to me anyway, actually very complicated.I think part of my problem is that I have cultivated excellent awareness without also cultivating a sense of acceptance.

Perfectly put.

I think I need some proper guidance with mindfulness, and I am on the waiting list to see a psychotherapist who basis his therapy in mindfulness. He is also a teacher at a local buddhist centre.

Has anyone experienced something similar?
Does anyone have any suggestions on a course of action whilst I am waiting to see this therapist?

Thanks, amigos.
Cheesus

suggestion: just observe. Look at it like this. Let's say you knew ahead of time that your next meditation session was going to be 30 minutes of alienation. Knowing that, let's sit for 30 minutes and just watch it. Knowing that trying to fight it only makes it worse and won't change it anyway, because you're going to have 30 minutes of alienation no matter what you do, makes it a lot easier to just sit there and watch it happen. Kind of like going to the dentist. You may not like it, but you don't fight him while you're in the chair, you just sit there and wait for him to get done and observe all the phenomena of the experience of the dental office. Same in meditation, same in life. Just observe.

[FeeHutch]

Hi Cheesus - loving your name

Welcome to our community. There's already some great ideas and experiences shared here. I just wanted to add that striving is something I've been considering and working around a lot lately too. I really empathise with the idea of striving not to strive and also agree with Omni that acceptance is key.

I look forward to sharing more with you.
Fee